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The writer Rob K. Henderson has covered the hypocrisy of the upper and upper-middle classes in several of his pieces on what he calls "luxury beliefs". The cas

by cxr 3y ago

The writer Rob K. Henderson has covered the hypocrisy of the upper and upper-middle classes in several of his pieces on what he calls "luxury beliefs". The case of Amazon def. fits into a similar theme. You can broach the topic with uppercrust folks (without even really trying) of whether supporting Walmart by shopping there is conscionable or not, and you'll get one set of responses/reactions. Meanwhile, it's nowhere near socially unacceptable to talk about all the stuff you order from Amazon, despite Amazon appearing to be by and large worse in its compensation/treatment of its employees and its effect on the economy and the environment—all things that aspiring bougie types ostensibly profess to rank highly in their meditations when it comes to Walmart.

boredinstapanda 3y ago
That seems to reason. Unless you buy all your stuff at Walmart online, you have to go in and see the people working and their working conditions. Amazon, you only see the checkout page. It makes it much easier to ignore the problems.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Shopping in Whole Foods is shopping at Amazon, where you also have to go in and see the people working and their working conditions.
silverquiet 3y ago
I think Amazon is actually among the best compensated of the "shit jobs" out there, but it is about the shittiest (certainly it's the pissiest; I've seen the bottle bombs their drivers like to leave since they don't really accommodate bathroom breaks). I don't even really find much hypocrisy amongst the upper class here; they'll outright say that these are shit jobs not intended to provide a living wage; certainly not something you can raise a family on. Probably said as, "those people should have gone to school".
- cxr 3y ago
  The Walmart distribution center built around where I grew up was not known as a hub of shit jobs. It was a source of envy. Amazon warehouse worker pay, in contrast, lags behind Walmart by several dollars per hour and offset several years. And that's assuming you're actually hired by the company directly, rather indirectly as a second class worker brought in through the timeless scam involving contractors employed by staffing agencies.
  - StressedDev 3y ago
    I work for staffing agencies at I like it. Please do not assume everyone wants a traditional 9-5 job.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      Total anecdote but had the opportunity to chat at length with an Amazon warehouse worker (in the UK) over the holidays. They said it’s hard work but they got various perks, decent pay, they didn’t even want to be a supervisor which they had been offered, and liked it. Would I want the job? Hell no. But this is an intelligent person who is doing this because they have no other option.
      - kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
        The UK has social safety nets that Americans don't get when they have a job. Amazon isn't allowed to play the same game in countries with worker protections.
        ghaff 3y ago
        I can certainly believe there are issues for Amazon workers in the US that don’t apply in the UK to the same degree. Although Amazon does seem to have various heath insurance plans for US workers. I assume workers have to pay some amount in as is the case with most jobs, including white collar ones, in the US.
      - 3y ago
keiferski 3y ago
Those kinds of people don’t shop at Walmart because they perceive themselves as being in a higher social class than the “people of Walmart.” I don’t think they care much about the compensation of the employees.
- cxr 3y ago
  Right. The key word in my comment was "ostensibly".
skhunted 3y ago
I care about worker’s rights but there is only so much I can do. The Clinton administration refused to include a requirement on standards of employment in order to benefit from free trade with the U.S. Walmart did a lot of harm while it grew to its current size. That memory is still fresh. The damage caused by Amazon is more opaque but it is a loathsome company. What is needed are standards of employment that all companies should be forced to adhere to.
xanderlewis 3y ago
The notion of luxury beliefs isn’t just about plain old hypocrisy (though of course there’s plenty of that) — I think it’s more about beliefs one can only hold because of one’s position of privilege. The usual example given is ‘defund the police’. If you’re rich enough to hire your own security or otherwise live safely in a world without police, you can advocate for this and win social points for doing so. Meanwhile, the actual consequences of such an idea, were it to be implemented, would be catastrophic. Unlimited immigration/open borders is another one: if you’re relatively poor, your ability to make a living (among other things) is potentially threatened by this. If you’re rich, you needn’t worry. You can live in your fancy neighbourhood far detached from the consequences of such policies, so you can freely hold such positions and even frown upon those who don’t. Luxury beliefs are just like tangible luxuries [*] — you have them not because you want them or really believe in them, but because they signal to others that you’re of a certain class. Poor people can’t have them, so they’re desirable as status indicators. [*] OK — some ‘luxuries’ are worth it and aren’t just for showing off. But I’m talking about the ones that are.
- ScoobleDoodle 3y ago
  "Defund the police" doesn't mean what you think it means here. It doesn't mean removing all funds from the police as the name implies. It actually means reallocating funds from the police to trained professionals for appropriate situations. Like having a government division that hires psychologist / mental health workers to respond to mental wellness checks. Having mental health / homelessness services workers respond to calls about vagrants. So instead of getting a boot to the teeth or death as seen in the news, those at risk groups and people get the directed help and support they need. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defund_the_police https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defund_the_police
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - rpjt 3y ago
    I'm not sure this distinction matters much to most people, though. People hear "defund the police" and draw their own conclusions as to what that means, and it's not a far leap to go from "defund the police" to "welp, guess they want to tie the hands of cops and take away all of their funding so they can't do their jobs"

by cxr 3y ago

boredinstapanda 3y ago

That seems to reason. Unless you buy all your stuff at Walmart online, you have to go in and see the people working and their working conditions. Amazon, you only see the checkout page. It makes it much easier to ignore the problems.

lotsofpulp 3y ago
Shopping in Whole Foods is shopping at Amazon, where you also have to go in and see the people working and their working conditions.

silverquiet 3y ago

I think Amazon is actually among the best compensated of the "shit jobs" out there, but it is about the shittiest (certainly it's the pissiest; I've seen the bottle bombs their drivers like to leave since they don't really accommodate bathroom breaks). I don't even really find much hypocrisy amongst the upper class here; they'll outright say that these are shit jobs not intended to provide a living wage; certainly not something you can raise a family on. Probably said as, "those people should have gone to school".

cxr 3y ago
The Walmart distribution center built around where I grew up was not known as a hub of shit jobs. It was a source of envy. Amazon warehouse worker pay, in contrast, lags behind Walmart by several dollars per hour and offset several years. And that's assuming you're actually hired by the company directly, rather indirectly as a second class worker brought in through the timeless scam involving contractors employed by staffing agencies.
- StressedDev 3y ago
  I work for staffing agencies at I like it. Please do not assume everyone wants a traditional 9-5 job.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    Total anecdote but had the opportunity to chat at length with an Amazon warehouse worker (in the UK) over the holidays. They said it’s hard work but they got various perks, decent pay, they didn’t even want to be a supervisor which they had been offered, and liked it. Would I want the job? Hell no. But this is an intelligent person who is doing this because they have no other option.
    - kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
      The UK has social safety nets that Americans don't get when they have a job. Amazon isn't allowed to play the same game in countries with worker protections.
      - ghaff 3y ago
        I can certainly believe there are issues for Amazon workers in the US that don’t apply in the UK to the same degree. Although Amazon does seem to have various heath insurance plans for US workers. I assume workers have to pay some amount in as is the case with most jobs, including white collar ones, in the US.
    - 3y ago

keiferski 3y ago

Those kinds of people don’t shop at Walmart because they perceive themselves as being in a higher social class than the “people of Walmart.” I don’t think they care much about the compensation of the employees.

cxr 3y ago
Right. The key word in my comment was "ostensibly".

skhunted 3y ago

I care about worker’s rights but there is only so much I can do. The Clinton administration refused to include a requirement on standards of employment in order to benefit from free trade with the U.S. Walmart did a lot of harm while it grew to its current size. That memory is still fresh. The damage caused by Amazon is more opaque but it is a loathsome company. What is needed are standards of employment that all companies should be forced to adhere to.

xanderlewis 3y ago

The notion of luxury beliefs isn’t just about plain old hypocrisy (though of course there’s plenty of that) — I think it’s more about beliefs one can only hold because of one’s position of privilege. The usual example given is ‘defund the police’. If you’re rich enough to hire your own security or otherwise live safely in a world without police, you can advocate for this and win social points for doing so. Meanwhile, the actual consequences of such an idea, were it to be implemented, would be catastrophic. Unlimited immigration/open borders is another one: if you’re relatively poor, your ability to make a living (among other things) is potentially threatened by this. If you’re rich, you needn’t worry. You can live in your fancy neighbourhood far detached from the consequences of such policies, so you can freely hold such positions and even frown upon those who don’t. Luxury beliefs are just like tangible luxuries [*] — you have them not because you want them or really believe in them, but because they signal to others that you’re of a certain class. Poor people can’t have them, so they’re desirable as status indicators. [*] OK — some ‘luxuries’ are worth it and aren’t just for showing off. But I’m talking about the ones that are.

ScoobleDoodle 3y ago
"Defund the police" doesn't mean what you think it means here. It doesn't mean removing all funds from the police as the name implies. It actually means reallocating funds from the police to trained professionals for appropriate situations. Like having a government division that hires psychologist / mental health workers to respond to mental wellness checks. Having mental health / homelessness services workers respond to calls about vagrants. So instead of getting a boot to the teeth or death as seen in the news, those at risk groups and people get the directed help and support they need. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defund_the_police https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defund_the_police
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rpjt 3y ago
  I'm not sure this distinction matters much to most people, though. People hear "defund the police" and draw their own conclusions as to what that means, and it's not a far leap to go from "defund the police" to "welp, guess they want to tie the hands of cops and take away all of their funding so they can't do their jobs"