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> , it only records an accident if the airbags deploy, I've often wondered if Tesla is gaming the figures by only deploying the airbags in really bad crashes,

> , it only records an accident if the airbags deploy, I've often wondered if Tesla is gaming the figures by only deploying the airbags in really bad crashes, whereas other manufacturers might deploy the airbags for pretty minor bumps. This in turn makes them look really good on 'number of accidents where airbags deploy'.

bangaladore 3y ago
The IIHS has repeatedly shown that Tesla airbags are the best in class. Deploying airbags when not needed can do significant harm to occupants. Not to mention total vehicles for no good reason. There isn't a need to wonder when independent data gatherers have already answered the question.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  It can be best in class, yet still rarely deploy... It can even be best in class when tested, rarely deploy, and save more lives than competitors. It just needs to correctly detect cases like this[1]. [1]: https://youtu.be/MTX0MvqBqL0?t=10 https://youtu.be/MTX0MvqBqL0?t=10
  - bangaladore 3y ago
    You claim that Tesla is gaming the system. I'm not aware of a definition of gaming in which the system is overall safer or equivalently safer than other top-tier competitors. That seems objectively better than deploying airbags when they will harm the occupants or total the vehicle when not-needed.
    - chucksta 3y ago
      It only makes sense if everyone else is gaming the system, and then it just proves it's still the best lol.
    - thenewnewguy 3y ago
      Tesla is not gaming the system by having a good airbag system that only deploys when necessary (that's actually really good!). Tesla is gaming the system by excluding accidents where the airbags don't deploy from the "Autopilot/FSD accidents" dataset, thus artificially deflating the number of accidents.
      - bangaladore 3y ago
        This is a point you certainly could make. But it is not what the original commenter wrote.
        thenewnewguy 3y ago
        Agreed, but I am not the original commenter, I am making my own point separately from them. I agree with you that Tesla isn't gaming anything by having a good airbag.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  > The IIHS has repeatedly shown that Tesla airbags are the best in class. No they haven't. For a start, IIHS doesn't rank "airbags". And then... Tesla fans love to latch on to this as a trope. The IIHS -groups- vehicles into safety levels by class. It doesn't rank in class, at all. So what, you might say, they're still in the top or top two safety levels, they deserve credit... Except: There are twenty one other vehicle at that same level or higher in the same segment ("mid-size luxury"), and sixteen if you only count the top segment. Of those, Tesla could be number 1, or number 16. You don't know. So this whole meme of "Tesla is the safest" needs to die, it's just bluster.
  - bangaladore 3y ago
    I think you are misrepresenting the actual IIHS results. For example, the Model Y is one of five cars that achieved the highest rating in its size class, not one of 16. You are grouping their highest and second-highest tiers together. Additionally, the Model Y is by and far the cheapest vehicle in that category. So, yes. If you consider a car to be classified by size and price, I think it is a very reasonable way to classify a car, the Model Y is very clearly the best in its class.
    - FireBeyond 3y ago
      > For example, the Model Y is one of five cars that achieved the highest rating in its size class, not one of 16. You are grouping their highest and second-highest tiers together. Who said I was talking about the Y? (I also specifically said that I was grouping them ("they're still in the top or top two safety levels"), because IIHS has "Top Safety Pick+", "Top Safety Pick" and "Others". Though I have been looking at 2023. But let's break it down: Tesla Model 3: Didn't make the cut. Model S: Didn't make the cut. > So, yes. If you consider a car to be classified by size and price, I think it is a very reasonable way to classify a car, the Model Y is very clearly the best in its class. "So yes" implies a logical conclusion. But your initial point was "IIHS says Tesla has the best airbags in class", which it does not. For one model of car it says that it is in the top five of that segment. But then somehow you blow that out to be "clearly, best in class, because it's cheapest". Like, no. The other cars in the category could have better safety than the Model Y. And if your argument is "its best because its cheapest" when it comes to safety? Wow. Huh. I suppose we all know the safest components are the cheapest?
furyofantares 3y ago
I have no knowledge or opinion about what thresholds various auto makers have relative to each other, beyond the fact that they probably all meet regulations. But I do want to point out that ~nobody would buy a car that deploys airbags for "pretty minor bumps". Airbag deployment is a serious event, it can injur or in rare cases kill a person itself.
YeahThisIsMe 3y ago
That's how airbags work in general. A slight bump won't set off your airbag in any car.
Veserv 3y ago
Tesla frequently loses telemetry in serious and fatal crashes [1]. For a specific example you can see here [2] listed as 13781-3074 where the fatal crash was detected by a complaint rather than telemetry. Of reported conclusively fatal accidents, only ~45% were detected by telemetry. From that alone, we can conclude that their telemetry is bad at fatal crash detection. However, when we contrast it against their regular crash reporting where ~90% are telemetry, we can further conclude that either crashes are massively under-reported or fatal accidents are uniquely under-reported (even ignoring the unknown base rate vs reported rate problem). In either case, the massive unexplained discrepancy in the most visible, fatal crashes demonstrates that their data collection procedures are grossly inadequate to conclude any positive safety statistic. The fact that Tesla repeatedly markets safety statistics based on grossly inadequate data collection procedures without any attempts to identify the true, higher rate, and without qualification is criminally repugnant. [1] https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/ffdd/sgo-2021-01/SGO-2021-01_Incident_Reports_ADAS.csv https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/ffdd/sgo-2021-01/SGO-2021-01_In... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/interactive/2024/tesla-full-self-driving-fatal-crash/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/interactive/2024/t...
- londons_explore 3y ago
  Recently disassembled a 2023 Nissan, and found that the telemetry/emergency crash reporting system has its own internal battery, sim card, and LTE antennas, allowing it to report a crash even when the cars electrical system is totally down due to large numbers of burnt/broken wires. I wonder if Tesla will consider that for future models...
FireBeyond 3y ago
> I've often wondered if Tesla is gaming the figures by only deploying the airbags in really bad crashes, whereas other manufacturers might deploy the airbags for pretty minor bumps. So even as a Tesla "hater", but as a paramedic, first generation airbags were very simplistic. Essentially, "if speed > x mph and collision = true then deploy". Nowadays, advanced airbag systems do calculations based on speed, G forces, angle of intrusion, lateral movement, etc., and decide "will the airbag system cause or risk more injury?", i.e. "can the passenger restraint system (i.e. seatbelts) do sufficient work to minimize injury". So you can get relatively low speed collision with heavy lateral movement causing a deployment, but some other deployments at 30mph not deploying airbags. All that being said, I do not believe Tesla (or any other manufacturer) so describe accidents only in terms of airbag deployment. Other factors like speed, G force felt, did seatbelt pretensioners activate, should all be sufficient to categorize as an accident.

bangaladore 3y ago

The IIHS has repeatedly shown that Tesla airbags are the best in class. Deploying airbags when not needed can do significant harm to occupants. Not to mention total vehicles for no good reason. There isn't a need to wonder when independent data gatherers have already answered the question.

londons_explore 3y ago
It can be best in class, yet still rarely deploy... It can even be best in class when tested, rarely deploy, and save more lives than competitors. It just needs to correctly detect cases like this[1]. [1]: https://youtu.be/MTX0MvqBqL0?t=10 https://youtu.be/MTX0MvqBqL0?t=10
- bangaladore 3y ago
  You claim that Tesla is gaming the system. I'm not aware of a definition of gaming in which the system is overall safer or equivalently safer than other top-tier competitors. That seems objectively better than deploying airbags when they will harm the occupants or total the vehicle when not-needed.
  - chucksta 3y ago
    It only makes sense if everyone else is gaming the system, and then it just proves it's still the best lol.
  - thenewnewguy 3y ago
    Tesla is not gaming the system by having a good airbag system that only deploys when necessary (that's actually really good!). Tesla is gaming the system by excluding accidents where the airbags don't deploy from the "Autopilot/FSD accidents" dataset, thus artificially deflating the number of accidents.
    - bangaladore 3y ago
      This is a point you certainly could make. But it is not what the original commenter wrote.
      - thenewnewguy 3y ago
        Agreed, but I am not the original commenter, I am making my own point separately from them. I agree with you that Tesla isn't gaming anything by having a good airbag.
FireBeyond 3y ago
> The IIHS has repeatedly shown that Tesla airbags are the best in class. No they haven't. For a start, IIHS doesn't rank "airbags". And then... Tesla fans love to latch on to this as a trope. The IIHS -groups- vehicles into safety levels by class. It doesn't rank in class, at all. So what, you might say, they're still in the top or top two safety levels, they deserve credit... Except: There are twenty one other vehicle at that same level or higher in the same segment ("mid-size luxury"), and sixteen if you only count the top segment. Of those, Tesla could be number 1, or number 16. You don't know. So this whole meme of "Tesla is the safest" needs to die, it's just bluster.
- bangaladore 3y ago
  I think you are misrepresenting the actual IIHS results. For example, the Model Y is one of five cars that achieved the highest rating in its size class, not one of 16. You are grouping their highest and second-highest tiers together. Additionally, the Model Y is by and far the cheapest vehicle in that category. So, yes. If you consider a car to be classified by size and price, I think it is a very reasonable way to classify a car, the Model Y is very clearly the best in its class.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    > For example, the Model Y is one of five cars that achieved the highest rating in its size class, not one of 16. You are grouping their highest and second-highest tiers together. Who said I was talking about the Y? (I also specifically said that I was grouping them ("they're still in the top or top two safety levels"), because IIHS has "Top Safety Pick+", "Top Safety Pick" and "Others". Though I have been looking at 2023. But let's break it down: Tesla Model 3: Didn't make the cut. Model S: Didn't make the cut. > So, yes. If you consider a car to be classified by size and price, I think it is a very reasonable way to classify a car, the Model Y is very clearly the best in its class. "So yes" implies a logical conclusion. But your initial point was "IIHS says Tesla has the best airbags in class", which it does not. For one model of car it says that it is in the top five of that segment. But then somehow you blow that out to be "clearly, best in class, because it's cheapest". Like, no. The other cars in the category could have better safety than the Model Y. And if your argument is "its best because its cheapest" when it comes to safety? Wow. Huh. I suppose we all know the safest components are the cheapest?

furyofantares 3y ago

I have no knowledge or opinion about what thresholds various auto makers have relative to each other, beyond the fact that they probably all meet regulations. But I do want to point out that ~nobody would buy a car that deploys airbags for "pretty minor bumps". Airbag deployment is a serious event, it can injur or in rare cases kill a person itself.

YeahThisIsMe 3y ago

That's how airbags work in general. A slight bump won't set off your airbag in any car.

Veserv 3y ago

Tesla frequently loses telemetry in serious and fatal crashes [1]. For a specific example you can see here [2] listed as 13781-3074 where the fatal crash was detected by a complaint rather than telemetry. Of reported conclusively fatal accidents, only ~45% were detected by telemetry. From that alone, we can conclude that their telemetry is bad at fatal crash detection. However, when we contrast it against their regular crash reporting where ~90% are telemetry, we can further conclude that either crashes are massively under-reported or fatal accidents are uniquely under-reported (even ignoring the unknown base rate vs reported rate problem). In either case, the massive unexplained discrepancy in the most visible, fatal crashes demonstrates that their data collection procedures are grossly inadequate to conclude any positive safety statistic. The fact that Tesla repeatedly markets safety statistics based on grossly inadequate data collection procedures without any attempts to identify the true, higher rate, and without qualification is criminally repugnant. [1] https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/ffdd/sgo-2021-01/SGO-2021-01_Incident_Reports_ADAS.csv https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/ffdd/sgo-2021-01/SGO-2021-01_In... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/interactive/2024/tesla-full-self-driving-fatal-crash/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/interactive/2024/t...

londons_explore 3y ago
Recently disassembled a 2023 Nissan, and found that the telemetry/emergency crash reporting system has its own internal battery, sim card, and LTE antennas, allowing it to report a crash even when the cars electrical system is totally down due to large numbers of burnt/broken wires. I wonder if Tesla will consider that for future models...

FireBeyond 3y ago

> I've often wondered if Tesla is gaming the figures by only deploying the airbags in really bad crashes, whereas other manufacturers might deploy the airbags for pretty minor bumps. So even as a Tesla "hater", but as a paramedic, first generation airbags were very simplistic. Essentially, "if speed > x mph and collision = true then deploy". Nowadays, advanced airbag systems do calculations based on speed, G forces, angle of intrusion, lateral movement, etc., and decide "will the airbag system cause or risk more injury?", i.e. "can the passenger restraint system (i.e. seatbelts) do sufficient work to minimize injury". So you can get relatively low speed collision with heavy lateral movement causing a deployment, but some other deployments at 30mph not deploying airbags. All that being said, I do not believe Tesla (or any other manufacturer) so describe accidents only in terms of airbag deployment. Other factors like speed, G force felt, did seatbelt pretensioners activate, should all be sufficient to categorize as an accident.