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> How else could it do that? Perhaps by having a dataset of symbols that corresponds to symbols that you similarly understand how they can be put together, as

> How else could it do that? Perhaps by having a dataset of symbols that corresponds to symbols that you similarly understand how they can be put together, as well by having a model for how to respond to inputs given some prompts. You can fill a SQL database with different kinds of apples and their prices. You can "ask" the price of a Golden Delicious apple, and the DBMS responds--intelligently, with the "right" answer given the question asked in semantic business language. How could the DBMS do that, if it didn't "understand" the data? The answer is, the machine system contained a system of symbols and a model for how to give you want you want. But the system didn't utilize any kind of first principles in its "understanding". I hypothesize there is a "true sense of understanding" or "understanding before anything else" that machines can mimic but that--currently--only humans are good at (even with LLM advances). At least, I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary. As an aside, if there really were an LLM that could understand, reason, "think" (so that it "understood" with an "inherent representation" to "encode an understanding of our world"), then it would, by all likelihood, be spouting some disruptive-seeming output (in the best sense possible--as in, output supportive of paradigm shifts from status quo positions in place for no reason other than momentum) across domains, and I'm just not seeing that. (Sure, the machine might be coerced to APPEAR to do such things, but that would be an illusion, and not doing it on its own--not true intelligence analysis.)

cs702 2y ago
> Perhaps by having a dataset of symbols that corresponds to symbols that you similarly understand how they can be put together, as well by having a model for how to respond to inputs given some prompts. That's the same as saying the machine has some kind of internal model of the world, with symbols it has learned standing in for concepts in the world, as understood by the machine. Representing things with symbols is in fact what GOFAI tried to do, but explicitly instead of via learning.
- realityfactchex 2y ago
  >> Perhaps by having a dataset of symbols...a model for how to respond to inputs.... > That's the same as saying the machine has some kind of internal model of the world...as understood by the machine. An object can contain a model of (a part of) the world without actually understanding it (for example, a printed photograph or an abacus does this). The LLM or some machine can have a detailed model of the world--which humans can meaningfully interact with to get outputs--without the machine actually having any true understanding itself. This thread makes me wonder if there are different (nuanced) usages of the word "understanding" at play (and maybe related words too). It also makes me curious--not to pick on the subject, but I think it is relevant: Do you happen hold the view that humans can be described with a purely physical model (mechanical, chemical, electric, or whatever materialistic form[s] of choice)? E.g., that humans are also just machines, however advanced/complex? I hypothesize that such a view might constrain the definition of "understanding" to a subset of its possible meanings, to which the article in the OP might not be constrained. Regardless, I appreciate the discussion.

cs702 2y ago

> Perhaps by having a dataset of symbols that corresponds to symbols that you similarly understand how they can be put together, as well by having a model for how to respond to inputs given some prompts. That's the same as saying the machine has some kind of internal model of the world, with symbols it has learned standing in for concepts in the world, as understood by the machine. Representing things with symbols is in fact what GOFAI tried to do, but explicitly instead of via learning.

realityfactchex 2y ago
>> Perhaps by having a dataset of symbols...a model for how to respond to inputs.... > That's the same as saying the machine has some kind of internal model of the world...as understood by the machine. An object can contain a model of (a part of) the world without actually understanding it (for example, a printed photograph or an abacus does this). The LLM or some machine can have a detailed model of the world--which humans can meaningfully interact with to get outputs--without the machine actually having any true understanding itself. This thread makes me wonder if there are different (nuanced) usages of the word "understanding" at play (and maybe related words too). It also makes me curious--not to pick on the subject, but I think it is relevant: Do you happen hold the view that humans can be described with a purely physical model (mechanical, chemical, electric, or whatever materialistic form[s] of choice)? E.g., that humans are also just machines, however advanced/complex? I hypothesize that such a view might constrain the definition of "understanding" to a subset of its possible meanings, to which the article in the OP might not be constrained. Regardless, I appreciate the discussion.