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Keys can require a pin (or maybe a password depending on implementation). But in general I haven't felt these are secure enough for the reason you say. While

Keys can require a pin (or maybe a password depending on implementation). But in general I haven't felt these are secure enough for the reason you say. While my practical threat model today would make passkeys seem great, the theoretical future threat model in my head does not support it.

kevincox 2y ago
PINs and passwords on HSM keys like this are typically very secure as they will wipe themselves or at least lock themselves after a small number of failed attempts. For example if you only allow 5 failed attempts a 4 digit random PIN has a 0.05% chance of being guessed and a 6 digit PIN is 0.0005%. So the only real risk is key extraction, hardware key extraction is always possible but likely incredibly expensive, so for most threat models it is not an issue. (Software key extraction or side channels is a different problem which may be easier but in theory is not possible.)
- franga2000 2y ago
  PIN+limit is still a much worse user experience than a password: - a PIN is hard to memorize, so people are more likely to use personally-relevant or common numbers, whereas a password can be easily be both complex and memorable - it's easy to burn through even 10 login attempts through any combination of temporary/permanent disability, stress, being drunk, damaged device... - a wipe-after-failed-attempts system is trivial to abuse, be it by a prankster or a real adversary - it's much easier to see someone's PIN over their shoulder or film them entering it
  - Ferret7446 2y ago
    PINs can include all characters just like a password. They're called PINs for historical reasons. (This does depend on the specific key/protocol.)
    - GenerocUsername 2y ago
      Great, so we are back to passwords then
      - aprilnya 2y ago
        No, because passwords are just something-you-know (one factor) while a passkey that’s protected with a password is both something-you-have and something-you-know (two factors)
        vdfs 2y ago
        So like a password manager?
        aprilnya 2y ago
        No, because a password manager still just stores passwords (one factor!); if someone got that password they can get in The whole point of a passkey is that it’s something you have, not know: - you can’t guess it because it’s a really long encryption key - you can’t phish it because using a passkey does not give the passkey to the site, it just proves that you have the key (typical priv/pub key auth) - you can’t steal it because passkeys are meant to never be moved from the device — it’s supposed to be impossible to extract them, as they’re supposed to live on a secure enclave type chip that is impossible to extract from So, no, not like a password manager

kevincox 2y ago

PINs and passwords on HSM keys like this are typically very secure as they will wipe themselves or at least lock themselves after a small number of failed attempts. For example if you only allow 5 failed attempts a 4 digit random PIN has a 0.05% chance of being guessed and a 6 digit PIN is 0.0005%. So the only real risk is key extraction, hardware key extraction is always possible but likely incredibly expensive, so for most threat models it is not an issue. (Software key extraction or side channels is a different problem which may be easier but in theory is not possible.)

franga2000 2y ago
PIN+limit is still a much worse user experience than a password: - a PIN is hard to memorize, so people are more likely to use personally-relevant or common numbers, whereas a password can be easily be both complex and memorable - it's easy to burn through even 10 login attempts through any combination of temporary/permanent disability, stress, being drunk, damaged device... - a wipe-after-failed-attempts system is trivial to abuse, be it by a prankster or a real adversary - it's much easier to see someone's PIN over their shoulder or film them entering it
- Ferret7446 2y ago
  PINs can include all characters just like a password. They're called PINs for historical reasons. (This does depend on the specific key/protocol.)
  - GenerocUsername 2y ago
    Great, so we are back to passwords then
    - aprilnya 2y ago
      No, because passwords are just something-you-know (one factor) while a passkey that’s protected with a password is both something-you-have and something-you-know (two factors)
      - vdfs 2y ago
        So like a password manager?
        aprilnya 2y ago
        No, because a password manager still just stores passwords (one factor!); if someone got that password they can get in The whole point of a passkey is that it’s something you have, not know: - you can’t guess it because it’s a really long encryption key - you can’t phish it because using a passkey does not give the passkey to the site, it just proves that you have the key (typical priv/pub key auth) - you can’t steal it because passkeys are meant to never be moved from the device — it’s supposed to be impossible to extract them, as they’re supposed to live on a secure enclave type chip that is impossible to extract from So, no, not like a password manager