6 ms·
That's the whole point of joining a union it turns a unilateral contract negotiation, where one party has no leverage, into a bi-lateral contract negotiation. T
by willyt 2y ago
That's the whole point of joining a union it turns a unilateral contract negotiation, where one party has no leverage, into a bi-lateral contract negotiation. The worker's leverage in the negotiation is to withdraw all labour halting production. The downside is that you don't get paid while you are on strike and it only works really well in industries where there is a labour shortage or it takes time to train up new workers who need experience and qualifications that are hard to obtain: pilots, train drivers, doctors, police all have very effective unions in the UK at least.
The difficulty that the amazon workers face is that they turn up and a screen says pick up these things from these boxes and take them over there, put them in other boxes, stick postage labels on and put it in the back of the truck. It doesn't take much training to do, so workers who unionise are very vulnerable to being fired until enough have joined the union to hold an effective strike.
Unions are always going to naturally form in a pure libertarian society where the only rules are freedom of contract. Usually they are restricted by government regulation.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- chuckadams 2y agoIn a pure fantasy libertarian society where the powerful actually respect the rights of the powerless, then yeah, unions would form organically. In the world that has actually existed throughout recorded history, those contracts are "do what we say or starve, we've made sure everyone else gives the same offer", and unions are put down by force.
- s1artibartfast 2y agoAs a libertarian, I suspect most of us would disagree with you on what rights the powerless have. For example, libertarians do not believe people have a right to food or shelter. You only have a right to keep and use your body and your property.
- card_zero 2y agoThis seems to logically resolve to "unions wouldn't form, because workers would be preoccupied by starving", which may unfortunately be true, I'm not sure.
- s1artibartfast 2y agoIt depends on a lot of factors like the scarcity of labor, availability of capital, and coordination capacity of workers and owners. for example, if you have a scarcity of labor, then labor sets the terms. AI architects could form a union any day they want, they just dont want to.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- s1artibartfast 2y agoI would be interested to understand how unions work in the UK, but In the US, much of their power comes more from regulatory protections than collective labor value and free contracting.
- empath-nirvana 2y agoUnion members bled and died to get those regulatory protections in the US.
- s1artibartfast 2y agoIs that supposed to mean something? lots of people died for the Third Reich, but that doesn't validate it.
- Y_Y 2y agoIt doesn't mean it's good, it means some people cared about it very much.
- willyt 2y agoYou don't have to be a member of a union to work in particular trade in the UK, apart from maybe Doctors who have to be members of the British Medical Association which I think is a regulatory body and a union combined although I might be wrong about that. For example Teachers, I think there are a couple of different unions they can choose from but they don't have to be in one of them to be a teacher. Is that different to the US?
- s1artibartfast 2y agoIn the US, there can only be one union by law. If you don't like it, you can't pick or make another. By us law, you are usually allowed to quit the union, if you do, you still have to pay the union part of your salary. In the US, workers can't join or start a union unless 51% of all workers vote to join them/let them. If all this sounds crazy, polarizing, and like a recipe for conflict, you are correct. I think the European versions of unions makes much more sense, and are closer to free association
- chrisjj 2y ago> a unilateral contract negotiation, where one party has no leverage A myth. Employee has leverage.
- willyt 2y agoDepends, if you are unemployed in the UK you get some income in social security benefits but only if you are actively seeking work or disabled and unfit to work. So if amazon opens a warehouse in your area and advertises for jobs you basically have to go and have an interview there or you will lose your benefits. You also will lose these benefits if you act like an idiot in the interview or you later get fired for misconduct so people are kind of forced to work there until something better comes along. The problem is compounded if you are living on minimum wage in council housing or a cheap rental in a deprived area because there are long waiting lists for subsidised council houses in parts of the country where there are more jobs available and where private sector rents are totally out of reach for people in minimum wage jobs so you can't easily move somewhere else for a better offer.