4 ms·

> The sheer oddity + lack of real world example code floating around made it feel impenetrable not sure if I understand you, but you have the code of the whole

by fizfaz 2y ago

> The sheer oddity + lack of real world example code floating around made it feel impenetrable not sure if I understand you, but you have the code of the whole system at your fingertips. Which is certainly "real world" because you are running it :)

em-bee 2y ago
real world example means end user applications, not developer tools. i want to see how an application looks like that my mother could use, or that i could sell to my customer. websites. desktop applications that hide the IDE...
- igouy 2y ago
  Your applications would look however you wanted them look. https://pharo.org/success/ https://pharo.org/success/
  - em-bee 2y ago
    that's not the question. we are looking for examples that come with source that can be studied. the success page lists 53 projects. only one of them came with a direct link to the source. one included an un-clickable link. one linked to a non-english website where i could figure out that it was licensed under the LGPL, but i could not find the link to the source. a surprise was that DrGeo which is known to be Free Software links to a dead website. grafoscopio which i also believe to be FOSS as well has a dead download link on its website. several other projects had dead links too. the only source i found was for HoneyGinger: https://github.com/tomooda/HoneyGinger https://github.com/tomooda/HoneyGinger OpenPonk https://github.com/OpenPonk https://github.com/OpenPonk and record: https://github.com/estebanlm/record https://github.com/estebanlm/record (7 years old) btw, DrGeo is here: https://github.com/hilaire/drgeo https://github.com/hilaire/drgeo that is three source examples under active development for a project as old and as large as pharo is that is surprisingly little. more accessible source examples are needed to attract developers. especially given the difficulty to get used to the pharo developer tools. i have actively explored working with pharo. i just could not find any useful apps that i could use and contribute to. and i had no ideas for an app that i'd be interested enough to create from scratch. for a while i even tried to use it as a desktop and used an app that provides a commandline inside pharo. the primary problem was that upgrading to a new version of pharo each year was difficult. given the image based development you tend to start with a current version of pharo and then keep to that version until you are done.
    - igouy 2y ago
      > i have actively explored working with pharo. Then you must already know more than me, about what's available now. Too much? https://github.com/feenkcom/gtoolkit https://github.com/feenkcom/gtoolkit > … given the image based development you tend to start with a current version of pharo and then keep to that version until you are done. I think of it as image based development: not image based version control.
      - em-bee 2y ago
        what do you mean by image based version control? i mean the lack of version control inside the image can be considered a problem, as you have to connect to external tools go get it, lest you save a copy of the image as a version (which is what i would call image based version control), which that is not practical at all. but that is not what i meant. i was talking about the problem that when i develop an application in pharo 11, but then i want to move the development to pharo 12, that amounts to a lot of work, so i don't do it but i'll stick to pharo 11 until my app is done.
        igouy 2y ago
        > that amounts to a lot of work Why? Are you making a lot of changes that conflict with the distro? "Guideline 120 Avoid modifying the existing behavior of base system classes." :-) 1996 Smalltalk with Style page 95 https://rmod-files.lille.inria.fr/FreeBooks/WithStyle/SmalltalkWithStyle.pdf https://rmod-files.lille.inria.fr/FreeBooks/WithStyle/Smallt...
        em-bee 2y ago
        it's not the code conflicts, but all the modifications i made to the environment. addons i installed, configurations i changed, windows i opened, code snippets i have in a workspace/playground. pharo is to much like a desktop, and switching to a new version of pharo is like reinstalling my computer and setting up my desktop from scratch. there is no tool that would just take every change i made to the original pharo image and apply it to the new one. you know like docker where your base image is immutable and changes to that image are saved in a separate image that is layered on top. so that you can replace the base image while keeping your changes.

by fizfaz 2y ago

em-bee 2y ago

real world example means end user applications, not developer tools. i want to see how an application looks like that my mother could use, or that i could sell to my customer. websites. desktop applications that hide the IDE...

igouy 2y ago
Your applications would look however you wanted them look. https://pharo.org/success/ https://pharo.org/success/
- em-bee 2y ago
  that's not the question. we are looking for examples that come with source that can be studied. the success page lists 53 projects. only one of them came with a direct link to the source. one included an un-clickable link. one linked to a non-english website where i could figure out that it was licensed under the LGPL, but i could not find the link to the source. a surprise was that DrGeo which is known to be Free Software links to a dead website. grafoscopio which i also believe to be FOSS as well has a dead download link on its website. several other projects had dead links too. the only source i found was for HoneyGinger: https://github.com/tomooda/HoneyGinger https://github.com/tomooda/HoneyGinger OpenPonk https://github.com/OpenPonk https://github.com/OpenPonk and record: https://github.com/estebanlm/record https://github.com/estebanlm/record (7 years old) btw, DrGeo is here: https://github.com/hilaire/drgeo https://github.com/hilaire/drgeo that is three source examples under active development for a project as old and as large as pharo is that is surprisingly little. more accessible source examples are needed to attract developers. especially given the difficulty to get used to the pharo developer tools. i have actively explored working with pharo. i just could not find any useful apps that i could use and contribute to. and i had no ideas for an app that i'd be interested enough to create from scratch. for a while i even tried to use it as a desktop and used an app that provides a commandline inside pharo. the primary problem was that upgrading to a new version of pharo each year was difficult. given the image based development you tend to start with a current version of pharo and then keep to that version until you are done.
  - igouy 2y ago
    > i have actively explored working with pharo. Then you must already know more than me, about what's available now. Too much? https://github.com/feenkcom/gtoolkit https://github.com/feenkcom/gtoolkit > … given the image based development you tend to start with a current version of pharo and then keep to that version until you are done. I think of it as image based development: not image based version control.
    - em-bee 2y ago
      what do you mean by image based version control? i mean the lack of version control inside the image can be considered a problem, as you have to connect to external tools go get it, lest you save a copy of the image as a version (which is what i would call image based version control), which that is not practical at all. but that is not what i meant. i was talking about the problem that when i develop an application in pharo 11, but then i want to move the development to pharo 12, that amounts to a lot of work, so i don't do it but i'll stick to pharo 11 until my app is done.
      - igouy 2y ago
        > that amounts to a lot of work Why? Are you making a lot of changes that conflict with the distro? "Guideline 120 Avoid modifying the existing behavior of base system classes." :-) 1996 Smalltalk with Style page 95 https://rmod-files.lille.inria.fr/FreeBooks/WithStyle/SmalltalkWithStyle.pdf https://rmod-files.lille.inria.fr/FreeBooks/WithStyle/Smallt...
        em-bee 2y ago
        it's not the code conflicts, but all the modifications i made to the environment. addons i installed, configurations i changed, windows i opened, code snippets i have in a workspace/playground. pharo is to much like a desktop, and switching to a new version of pharo is like reinstalling my computer and setting up my desktop from scratch. there is no tool that would just take every change i made to the original pharo image and apply it to the new one. you know like docker where your base image is immutable and changes to that image are saved in a separate image that is layered on top. so that you can replace the base image while keeping your changes.