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That's a strongly-worded article! But practically speaking, what can consumers (or consumer orgs) do to fight back? Can I look under the dash, rip out an offend

That's a strongly-worded article! But practically speaking, what can consumers (or consumer orgs) do to fight back? Can I look under the dash, rip out an offending component and stomp on it until it's a pile of shattered debris? Can I hire a hacker to put in workarounds and disable the snitching apps? If the industry have their way, it will soon become illegal to drive without connected telemetry continuously reporting back. And yes, there are such great, positive uses for this type of technology. We could use the logged data to create individual drivers' profiles, and with this, curate personalized guides and training to help them become better drivers. Gamify the experience to give positive feedback and hand out useless awards of Best Driver In Mocktown or whatever.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> what can consumers (or consumer orgs) do to fight back? Sue [1]. [1] https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2024/03/22/gm-data-firms-lexis-nexis/73057931007/ https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2024/0...
everyone 3y ago
Vote with your wallet. Never buy a car that has any of that crap in it.
- boringg 3y ago
  But doesn't that crap lower the cost of ownership? I wouldn't buy it -- but isn't that the argument?
- MikeTheGreat 3y ago
  Serious question: how does one find out if a given car (make/model) has that stuff in it? I'm kinda-sorta thinking about replacing my 2006 car, maybe. The last time I bought a car I definitely didn't have to worry about it spying on me :)
  - mortos 3y ago
    It's a bad faith argument. I'm not as familiar with the other markets, but this would mean avoiding all Japanese cars. Which is a bad idea if you also want a reliable car and/or value. I'm just familiar with the data collection and the flow of data to insurance companies for JDM cars. A quick look at an EFF article and you should probably also avoid every car manufacturer.
    - jorts 3y ago
      Please elaborate on issues with Japanese cars.
      - wil421 3y ago
        They sell all your driving data.
        kube-system 3y ago
        Mine doesn't go to LexisNexis like the GM data does, at least. I checked.
        wil421 3y ago
        Luckily for my I’m not sure Jeep does it. Pretty sure my wife’s BMW sends everything short of audio/video recordings back to home.
      - mortos 3y ago
        As the other guy said, the data is sold. Toyota Motor Insurance Services, Inc. (TMIS) collects the data from Subaru, Mazda, and Toyota. I don't believe Honda does, looks like they go through a different data broker. TMIS also gives the data to other companies that create metrics and ML models for insurance companies.
- LadyCailin 3y ago
  And what happens when every car manufacturer has this, and you need a new car? Walk? Start your own car factory? Nah. Consumer protection laws are the right way. It’s not actually a free market, despite what they might say.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    It's hard for me to imagine needing a new car. There will be suitable older used cars available for a long time still. When there isn't anymore, I'll work out a different plan. I agree with you that the law is the right way to address these issues, but until then I'm on my own.
    - 7speter 3y ago
      By the time todays new cars become used, hopefully people will have figured out how to disable these features.
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        They already are. For lots of cars, a quick web search will get you instruction for how to disable the car's ability to phone home. As time goes on, I expect more and more cars will have such instructions. That's pretty much my backup plan for when the day comes that even used cars include this stuff. But until then, it's easier for me to stick with used cars that don't require modification.
    - throwaway48476 3y ago
      America will end up looking like Cuba. On the other hand the 3G system shutdown might help this issue.
  - troyvit 3y ago
    This is my problem. We have 2 cars, a 2006 and a 2007. The time will come when we have to replace them. Right now I'm just hoping that industries like crate engines take off before that happens, because I don't personally believe consumer protection laws will work.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  That's exactly what I'm doing.
- chucksta 3y ago
  How long do you think it will be until they figure out how to get the same info from your phone? If they aren't already.
  - Karellen 3y ago
    How will they know which car you're in for any given journey?
    - chucksta 3y ago
      bluetooth, wifi, AA/carplay, start stop destinations, starting with people who only have 1 registered car
      - Karellen 3y ago
        I don't understand how those will make a difference if a friend gives you a lift somewhere and back again? Or if your partner is driving?
        chucksta 2y ago
        You don't think there is tracking text or geo information that can identify you've had a convo with your friend and are going for a ride? That they can't identify acceleration habits between two people? It doesn't have to be perfect, its not like they're going to tell you how it works.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> what can consumers (or consumer orgs) do to fight back? Sue [1]. [1] https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2024/03/22/gm-data-firms-lexis-nexis/73057931007/ https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2024/0...

everyone 3y ago

Vote with your wallet. Never buy a car that has any of that crap in it.

boringg 3y ago
But doesn't that crap lower the cost of ownership? I wouldn't buy it -- but isn't that the argument?
MikeTheGreat 3y ago
Serious question: how does one find out if a given car (make/model) has that stuff in it? I'm kinda-sorta thinking about replacing my 2006 car, maybe. The last time I bought a car I definitely didn't have to worry about it spying on me :)
- mortos 3y ago
  It's a bad faith argument. I'm not as familiar with the other markets, but this would mean avoiding all Japanese cars. Which is a bad idea if you also want a reliable car and/or value. I'm just familiar with the data collection and the flow of data to insurance companies for JDM cars. A quick look at an EFF article and you should probably also avoid every car manufacturer.
  - jorts 3y ago
    Please elaborate on issues with Japanese cars.
    - wil421 3y ago
      They sell all your driving data.
      - kube-system 3y ago
        Mine doesn't go to LexisNexis like the GM data does, at least. I checked.
        wil421 3y ago
        Luckily for my I’m not sure Jeep does it. Pretty sure my wife’s BMW sends everything short of audio/video recordings back to home.
    - mortos 3y ago
      As the other guy said, the data is sold. Toyota Motor Insurance Services, Inc. (TMIS) collects the data from Subaru, Mazda, and Toyota. I don't believe Honda does, looks like they go through a different data broker. TMIS also gives the data to other companies that create metrics and ML models for insurance companies.
LadyCailin 3y ago
And what happens when every car manufacturer has this, and you need a new car? Walk? Start your own car factory? Nah. Consumer protection laws are the right way. It’s not actually a free market, despite what they might say.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  It's hard for me to imagine needing a new car. There will be suitable older used cars available for a long time still. When there isn't anymore, I'll work out a different plan. I agree with you that the law is the right way to address these issues, but until then I'm on my own.
  - 7speter 3y ago
    By the time todays new cars become used, hopefully people will have figured out how to disable these features.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      They already are. For lots of cars, a quick web search will get you instruction for how to disable the car's ability to phone home. As time goes on, I expect more and more cars will have such instructions. That's pretty much my backup plan for when the day comes that even used cars include this stuff. But until then, it's easier for me to stick with used cars that don't require modification.
  - throwaway48476 3y ago
    America will end up looking like Cuba. On the other hand the 3G system shutdown might help this issue.
- troyvit 3y ago
  This is my problem. We have 2 cars, a 2006 and a 2007. The time will come when we have to replace them. Right now I'm just hoping that industries like crate engines take off before that happens, because I don't personally believe consumer protection laws will work.
JohnFen 3y ago
That's exactly what I'm doing.
chucksta 3y ago
How long do you think it will be until they figure out how to get the same info from your phone? If they aren't already.
- Karellen 3y ago
  How will they know which car you're in for any given journey?
  - chucksta 3y ago
    bluetooth, wifi, AA/carplay, start stop destinations, starting with people who only have 1 registered car
    - Karellen 3y ago
      I don't understand how those will make a difference if a friend gives you a lift somewhere and back again? Or if your partner is driving?
      - chucksta 2y ago
        You don't think there is tracking text or geo information that can identify you've had a convo with your friend and are going for a ride? That they can't identify acceleration habits between two people? It doesn't have to be perfect, its not like they're going to tell you how it works.