5 ms·

They also didn't eat a lot of fries, sugared beverages, ultra-processed food, etc... which is easily available nowadays and likely to be consumed when one doesn

They also didn't eat a lot of fries, sugared beverages, ultra-processed food, etc... which is easily available nowadays and likely to be consumed when one doesn't feel satiated (e.g. due to meat consumption). That's not to say that there aren't alternatives to meat that also satiate and are nutritious, but most people don't consider them to be equally delicious and therefore they are not as likely to be consumed if meat isn't available.

triceratops 2y ago
That means the obesity isn't due to meat or a lack of meat, per se. It's the diet outside of the meat. > fries, sugared beverages...which is likely to be consumed when one doesn't feel satiated (e.g. due to meat consumption). You know what goes really well with a juicy hamburger or a steak? Crisp fries, and a cool, refreshing, tall glass of Coke (maybe not the Coke so much with a steak), or a frosty milkshake.
- someplaceguy 2y ago
  > That means the obesity isn't due to meat or a lack of meat, per se. It's the diet outside of the meat. So... if you take the meat out what does that leave you with?
  - triceratops 2y ago
    Who orders just fries and a Coke? People eat junk food because it tastes good. Period. Not because they didn't get enough meat or some BS like that. Meat-eaters eat fries. Vegetarians eat fries. Everyone eats fries. They're delicious. If you take the meat out there's a whole world of nutritious and delicious foods out there. You just have to broaden your culinary horizons. I'm not even a vegetarian or vegan, have no plans to be one, and I still recognize this.
    - someplaceguy 2y ago
      > If you take the meat out there's a whole world of nutritious and delicious foods out there. But most people will not find, enjoy or choose food with both of those qualities, not to mention that they are a minority over what's commonly available -- and even if they are available, they'd probably become too expensive if consumption increased significantly. Most of the time they'd have to choose between "delicious foods" or "nutritious foods", but not both, and you know they'd choose the former. If you take out meat, you'll simply reduce the pool of available (good) choices. You'll have a strictly worse outcome than what you had before (except for the animals, admittedly).
      - triceratops 2y ago
        > If you take out meat, you'll simply reduce the pool of available (good) choices Only if we forced everyone to give up meat at gunpoint. Most people who choose to go meat-free, and stick with it, end up finding tasty and nutritious food that works for them. > even when they are available, they are usually too expensive to become a common staple. People automatically assume that giving up meat means salads and tofu all day, bought in 2oz packages from Whole Foods while wearing Lululemon yoga pants. And you gotta throw in the $10 artisan kombucha while you're at it. Beans, lentils, and green peas are far cheaper and healthier than any meat or Impossible burger. You can get them at your local Indian or Mexican grocer for less than $1/lb. Or tofu and seitan from Costco or 99 Ranch Market. A little soybean paste or mushroom broth adds a blast of umami. That's what I mean by "broadening your culinary horizons". And no beans can never become more expensive than meat, even if more people start eating them. It's simple thermodynamics. Look at the poorest countries on Earth - I guarantee you they eat more beans and lentils than meat. That's what a "common staple" is. If they can afford it, anyone can.
        someplaceguy 2y ago
        I'll happily concede the expensiveness point, and also say that if we are not entertaining the idea of forcing anyone to give up meat (which is what I thought we were discussing), then we are not in disagreement. I'll only add that when promoting vegetarianism or veganism, I find most such sources to be akin to propaganda, i.e. they always talk about the benefits but rarely talk about the disadvantages. I suspect this might be because veganism is often tied to political preferences (and certain cultures). As an example, here's something Wikipedia mentions that you will not usually see entirely discussed in articles promoting such diets: > [Vegan diets tend to be lower in] omega-3 fatty acid, vitamin D, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B12. As a result of the elimination of all animal products, a poorly planned vegan diet can lead to nutritional deficiencies that counteract its beneficial effects and cause serious health issues, some of which can only be prevented with fortified foods or dietary supplements This might partly explain why it's about as common to find a vegan bodybuilder as a flying cow... it might not be impossible to find one, but it's about as unnatural. And there are probably good reasons for this, including availability and easy absorption/digestibility of all the essential amino acids, which is important for muscle growth and maintenance, which in turn is very important for health especially in middle and old age. It could also explain why when I see a random vegan person, they tend to "look" unhealthy more often than a random non-vegan person, although I concede that I may be biased, of course -- I've also seen sources claiming vegan people live longer, although I suspect that if it's true, it may be because vegans tend to be more health-conscious and choose their diet and sources of nutrition more carefully, not necessarily because of the lack of meat itself. But of course, as long as all such information is reported in an unbiased and accurate fashion, I see nothing wrong with it.
    - Izkata 2y ago
      > Who orders just fries and a Coke? Me as a kid. Best parts of the meal.
- kelipso 2y ago
  > You know what goes really well with a juicy hamburger or a steak? Crisp fries, and a cool, refreshing, tall glass of Coke (maybe not the Coke so much with a steak), or a frosty milkshake. That's a disgusting fast-food derived dietary preference. Healthy meat-centric diet does not look anything like that.
  - triceratops 2y ago
    That's precisely my point. There are healthy and unhealthy meat-centric diets. There are healthy and unhealthy meatless diets. The absence of meat isn't the cause of a bad diet, as GP was alleging. People have bad diets because they like the taste of unhealthy food and either don't care or don't know about the consequences. (And I'll quibble about it being entirely fast-food derived. Steak-frites is classic French and Belgian food.)
    - kelipso 2y ago
      The Coke or milkshake with food in all likelihood is lol.

triceratops 2y ago

That means the obesity isn't due to meat or a lack of meat, per se. It's the diet outside of the meat. > fries, sugared beverages...which is likely to be consumed when one doesn't feel satiated (e.g. due to meat consumption). You know what goes really well with a juicy hamburger or a steak? Crisp fries, and a cool, refreshing, tall glass of Coke (maybe not the Coke so much with a steak), or a frosty milkshake.

someplaceguy 2y ago
> That means the obesity isn't due to meat or a lack of meat, per se. It's the diet outside of the meat. So... if you take the meat out what does that leave you with?
- triceratops 2y ago
  Who orders just fries and a Coke? People eat junk food because it tastes good. Period. Not because they didn't get enough meat or some BS like that. Meat-eaters eat fries. Vegetarians eat fries. Everyone eats fries. They're delicious. If you take the meat out there's a whole world of nutritious and delicious foods out there. You just have to broaden your culinary horizons. I'm not even a vegetarian or vegan, have no plans to be one, and I still recognize this.
  - someplaceguy 2y ago
    > If you take the meat out there's a whole world of nutritious and delicious foods out there. But most people will not find, enjoy or choose food with both of those qualities, not to mention that they are a minority over what's commonly available -- and even if they are available, they'd probably become too expensive if consumption increased significantly. Most of the time they'd have to choose between "delicious foods" or "nutritious foods", but not both, and you know they'd choose the former. If you take out meat, you'll simply reduce the pool of available (good) choices. You'll have a strictly worse outcome than what you had before (except for the animals, admittedly).
    - triceratops 2y ago
      > If you take out meat, you'll simply reduce the pool of available (good) choices Only if we forced everyone to give up meat at gunpoint. Most people who choose to go meat-free, and stick with it, end up finding tasty and nutritious food that works for them. > even when they are available, they are usually too expensive to become a common staple. People automatically assume that giving up meat means salads and tofu all day, bought in 2oz packages from Whole Foods while wearing Lululemon yoga pants. And you gotta throw in the $10 artisan kombucha while you're at it. Beans, lentils, and green peas are far cheaper and healthier than any meat or Impossible burger. You can get them at your local Indian or Mexican grocer for less than $1/lb. Or tofu and seitan from Costco or 99 Ranch Market. A little soybean paste or mushroom broth adds a blast of umami. That's what I mean by "broadening your culinary horizons". And no beans can never become more expensive than meat, even if more people start eating them. It's simple thermodynamics. Look at the poorest countries on Earth - I guarantee you they eat more beans and lentils than meat. That's what a "common staple" is. If they can afford it, anyone can.
      - someplaceguy 2y ago
        I'll happily concede the expensiveness point, and also say that if we are not entertaining the idea of forcing anyone to give up meat (which is what I thought we were discussing), then we are not in disagreement. I'll only add that when promoting vegetarianism or veganism, I find most such sources to be akin to propaganda, i.e. they always talk about the benefits but rarely talk about the disadvantages. I suspect this might be because veganism is often tied to political preferences (and certain cultures). As an example, here's something Wikipedia mentions that you will not usually see entirely discussed in articles promoting such diets: > [Vegan diets tend to be lower in] omega-3 fatty acid, vitamin D, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B12. As a result of the elimination of all animal products, a poorly planned vegan diet can lead to nutritional deficiencies that counteract its beneficial effects and cause serious health issues, some of which can only be prevented with fortified foods or dietary supplements This might partly explain why it's about as common to find a vegan bodybuilder as a flying cow... it might not be impossible to find one, but it's about as unnatural. And there are probably good reasons for this, including availability and easy absorption/digestibility of all the essential amino acids, which is important for muscle growth and maintenance, which in turn is very important for health especially in middle and old age. It could also explain why when I see a random vegan person, they tend to "look" unhealthy more often than a random non-vegan person, although I concede that I may be biased, of course -- I've also seen sources claiming vegan people live longer, although I suspect that if it's true, it may be because vegans tend to be more health-conscious and choose their diet and sources of nutrition more carefully, not necessarily because of the lack of meat itself. But of course, as long as all such information is reported in an unbiased and accurate fashion, I see nothing wrong with it.
  - Izkata 2y ago
    > Who orders just fries and a Coke? Me as a kid. Best parts of the meal.
kelipso 2y ago
> You know what goes really well with a juicy hamburger or a steak? Crisp fries, and a cool, refreshing, tall glass of Coke (maybe not the Coke so much with a steak), or a frosty milkshake. That's a disgusting fast-food derived dietary preference. Healthy meat-centric diet does not look anything like that.
- triceratops 2y ago
  That's precisely my point. There are healthy and unhealthy meat-centric diets. There are healthy and unhealthy meatless diets. The absence of meat isn't the cause of a bad diet, as GP was alleging. People have bad diets because they like the taste of unhealthy food and either don't care or don't know about the consequences. (And I'll quibble about it being entirely fast-food derived. Steak-frites is classic French and Belgian food.)
  - kelipso 2y ago
    The Coke or milkshake with food in all likelihood is lol.