3 ms·

Is anyone still surprised the UK doesn't respect the privacy of their citizens? If the UK still was in the EU, this would have never happened.

switch007 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_Powers_Act_2000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_Po... We were in the EU in 2000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigatory_Powers_Act_2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigatory_Powers_Act_2016 And in 2016
- echelon_musk 2y ago
  RIPA 2016 was to legalise practices exposed by Snowden. The "regulation" part in the title is just newspeak smokescreen. They regulated themselves.
basisword 2y ago
>> If the UK still was in the EU, this would have never happened. I wouldn't be so sure about that. The original act passed in 2016 and was already an abomination.
- Symbiote 2y ago
  The EU court ruled against this law in 2020: https://www.blueprintforfreespeech.net/en/news/eu-court-rules-users-data-cant-be-collected-by-isps-for-surveillance https://www.blueprintforfreespeech.net/en/news/eu-court-rule...
  - tgv 2y ago
    Indeed. A state can pass whatever legislation, but it's not the highest authority in EU member states. States still have to obey the various agreements, treaties and rulings, although enforcing that falls back onto the member states themselves. So a sufficiently determined government (Poland/PiS, Hungary) can still get away with a lot.
- ben_w 2y ago
  Indeed; that even the Welsh Ambulance Service was ever given nationwide no-warrant-needed access to internet connection records still irks me. However, the 2016 act was ruled incompatible with EU law: https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/2018/975.html https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/2018/975.html
duxup 2y ago
Is there something about the EU that would prevent government spying? Most privacy efforts I've seen in the EU are commercial facing legislation that I find kinda of piecemeal and naive (granted I'll take naive over nothing, sometimes...). I don't know that I've seen efforts that would seriously curtail government surveillance.
- ben_w 2y ago
  > Is there something about the EU that would prevent government spying? Limit, rather than outright prevent. """Respect for private and family life Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications.""" — Chapter II, Article 7, Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, https://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf Which is part of the Treaty of Lisbon.
  - duxup 2y ago
    Has that prevented any laws? Been used in a challenge? Honest question as I really don't closely follow this area in the EU.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      The principle certainly has, but without being a lawyer I can't be more detailed than "this sounds like the right vibe". Off the top of my head, it's connected to all of: 1) the 2016 act being ruled incompatible with EU law: https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/2018/975.html https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/2018/975.html 2) all the GDPR popups people seem to hate even more than thing GDPR is trying to get under control 3) an ongoing battle over transatlantic data sharing by private corporations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Schrems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Schrems
- denton-scratch 2y ago
  > Is there something about the EU that would prevent government spying? Presumably you mean laws and treaties; those exist. But I wouldn't expect government spies to pay excessive attention to the law. The problem is the clauses about requiring distributors to get state clearance before deploying an update [ahem - nooo, that disables our backdoor], and increased costs and obligations on ISPs. Thwy won't ever try to enforce the law against the spooks, but for big tech companies, it's just regulatory clutter. They have staff lawyers out the wazoo, all specializing in regulatory clutter. Not good for small ISPs and tech companies.
ethbr1 2y ago
> If the UK still was in the EU, this would have never happened. Why do you think people in the government wanted them to leave? The UK has never squared the "free speech, even when it's inconvenient to those in power" circle.
hgyjnbdet 2y ago
Are you aware of sone of the proposed laws the EU wants to enact?
- graemep 2y ago
  Hardly anyone is. One of the problems with the EU is that because the media focus on national governments, and because the EU often acts indirectly (through directives, requiring national governments to pass legislation, rather than direct legislation) people really have little idea of what the EU does legislatively. I am aware of the current attempts to push surveillance laws, although AFAIK the EU parliament did reject the worst of the legislation the commission tried to push.
chmod775 2y ago
The UK is still subject to the European Court of Human Rights, which is distinct from the EU. Relevant past rulings: https://dpglaw.co.uk/european-court-of-human-rights-declares-uks-mass-surveillance-regime-unlawful/ https://dpglaw.co.uk/european-court-of-human-rights-declares... https://privacyinternational.org/press-release/5120/judgment-says-uk-cannot-digitally-spy-people-outside-its-borders-without https://privacyinternational.org/press-release/5120/judgment...
- matthewdgreen 2y ago
  The typical government response to European Court rulings against surveillance is just to interpret them in some favorable way, then ignore them. So if the court outlaws "mass surveillance" and you've instituted a mass surveillance system, just call it "targeted surveillance" or ignore the ruling altogether. Maybe in 6-7 years you'll get another ruling against that, but it doesn't matter.

switch007 2y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_Powers_Act_2000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_Po... We were in the EU in 2000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigatory_Powers_Act_2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigatory_Powers_Act_2016 And in 2016

echelon_musk 2y ago
RIPA 2016 was to legalise practices exposed by Snowden. The "regulation" part in the title is just newspeak smokescreen. They regulated themselves.

basisword 2y ago

>> If the UK still was in the EU, this would have never happened. I wouldn't be so sure about that. The original act passed in 2016 and was already an abomination.

Symbiote 2y ago
The EU court ruled against this law in 2020: https://www.blueprintforfreespeech.net/en/news/eu-court-rules-users-data-cant-be-collected-by-isps-for-surveillance https://www.blueprintforfreespeech.net/en/news/eu-court-rule...
- tgv 2y ago
  Indeed. A state can pass whatever legislation, but it's not the highest authority in EU member states. States still have to obey the various agreements, treaties and rulings, although enforcing that falls back onto the member states themselves. So a sufficiently determined government (Poland/PiS, Hungary) can still get away with a lot.
ben_w 2y ago
Indeed; that even the Welsh Ambulance Service was ever given nationwide no-warrant-needed access to internet connection records still irks me. However, the 2016 act was ruled incompatible with EU law: https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/2018/975.html https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/2018/975.html

duxup 2y ago

Is there something about the EU that would prevent government spying? Most privacy efforts I've seen in the EU are commercial facing legislation that I find kinda of piecemeal and naive (granted I'll take naive over nothing, sometimes...). I don't know that I've seen efforts that would seriously curtail government surveillance.

ben_w 2y ago
> Is there something about the EU that would prevent government spying? Limit, rather than outright prevent. """Respect for private and family life Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications.""" — Chapter II, Article 7, Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, https://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf Which is part of the Treaty of Lisbon.
- duxup 2y ago
  Has that prevented any laws? Been used in a challenge? Honest question as I really don't closely follow this area in the EU.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    The principle certainly has, but without being a lawyer I can't be more detailed than "this sounds like the right vibe". Off the top of my head, it's connected to all of: 1) the 2016 act being ruled incompatible with EU law: https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/2018/975.html https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/2018/975.html 2) all the GDPR popups people seem to hate even more than thing GDPR is trying to get under control 3) an ongoing battle over transatlantic data sharing by private corporations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Schrems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Schrems
denton-scratch 2y ago
> Is there something about the EU that would prevent government spying? Presumably you mean laws and treaties; those exist. But I wouldn't expect government spies to pay excessive attention to the law. The problem is the clauses about requiring distributors to get state clearance before deploying an update [ahem - nooo, that disables our backdoor], and increased costs and obligations on ISPs. Thwy won't ever try to enforce the law against the spooks, but for big tech companies, it's just regulatory clutter. They have staff lawyers out the wazoo, all specializing in regulatory clutter. Not good for small ISPs and tech companies.

ethbr1 2y ago

> If the UK still was in the EU, this would have never happened. Why do you think people in the government wanted them to leave? The UK has never squared the "free speech, even when it's inconvenient to those in power" circle.

hgyjnbdet 2y ago

Are you aware of sone of the proposed laws the EU wants to enact?

graemep 2y ago
Hardly anyone is. One of the problems with the EU is that because the media focus on national governments, and because the EU often acts indirectly (through directives, requiring national governments to pass legislation, rather than direct legislation) people really have little idea of what the EU does legislatively. I am aware of the current attempts to push surveillance laws, although AFAIK the EU parliament did reject the worst of the legislation the commission tried to push.

chmod775 2y ago

The UK is still subject to the European Court of Human Rights, which is distinct from the EU. Relevant past rulings: https://dpglaw.co.uk/european-court-of-human-rights-declares-uks-mass-surveillance-regime-unlawful/ https://dpglaw.co.uk/european-court-of-human-rights-declares... https://privacyinternational.org/press-release/5120/judgment-says-uk-cannot-digitally-spy-people-outside-its-borders-without https://privacyinternational.org/press-release/5120/judgment...

matthewdgreen 2y ago
The typical government response to European Court rulings against surveillance is just to interpret them in some favorable way, then ignore them. So if the court outlaws "mass surveillance" and you've instituted a mass surveillance system, just call it "targeted surveillance" or ignore the ruling altogether. Maybe in 6-7 years you'll get another ruling against that, but it doesn't matter.