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I've used/deployed FreeBSD for over 20 years and I have to admit I dread connecting to a GNU/Linux box. It's just such a mess of a system with so many variation

I've used/deployed FreeBSD for over 20 years and I have to admit I dread connecting to a GNU/Linux box. It's just such a mess of a system with so many variations in inconsistencies. Even connecting to a Windows server makes more 'sense' to me. Anyway, I'm glad to hear that there might be a sane Linux distro out there. I will give it a go if I need a linux box which is pretty rare tbh.

aeonik 2y ago
Everyone who uses BSD says the same thing, but it's still unclear to me what you mean. What inconsistencies does Linux have that BSD does not? I've looked for an explanation, but I only get high level explanations, or specific features like jails. You wouldn't happen to have more information, would you?
- kstrauser 2y ago
  My Debian server has a mix of systemd and /etc/init.d startup scripts. That’s the sort of thing where a BSD would be likely to say, ok, as of version N due in 3 months, we’re migrating everything and going from 100% old way to 100% new way.
  - cesarb 2y ago
    > My Debian server has a mix of systemd and /etc/init.d startup scripts. [...] ok, as of version N due in 3 months, we’re migrating everything and going from 100% old way to 100% new way. You'll be happy to know that this is going to happen. Quoting https://github.com/systemd/systemd/blob/v255/NEWS https://github.com/systemd/systemd/blob/v255/NEWS > Support for System V service scripts is now deprecated and will be removed in a future release. Please make sure to update your software now to include a native systemd unit file instead of a legacy System V script to retain compatibility with future systemd releases.
    - kstrauser 2y ago
      Eh, I don’t really care either way. The ones I really care about are in my shell history. I meant that more as an example of where the BSD way would be different. Since they manage all of the software together, it’s much easier for them to do wholesale migrations like that.
    - wrycoder 2y ago
      Who can keep up with that? OpenBSD is a placid pond by comparison.
- unilynx 2y ago
  firewalls. is it iptables, nftables? what is iptables-nft and iptables-legacy doing in this mix? or was I supposed to manage them with firewallctl or ufw? network settings. if-up scripts? NetworkManager? Are we already supposed to use that systemd-network thingy or is it still not ready ? I just need to add an IP address in addition to the one given by DHCP... who is managing /etc/resolv.conf today? (my regular frustrations when dealing with both Ubuntu and Rocky Linux hosts..)
  - epcoa 2y ago
    > firewalls This seems like not the best example since FreeBSD has 3 implementations that may be in use depending on the whims of the sysadmin.
    - antranigv 2y ago
      FreeBSD has 3 different firewalls, not 3 different interfaces to the same firewall. Each firewall has its own purpose. IPF is lightweight, pf has a nice UI/UX, ipfw is very integrated into the system. More importantly, doing a simple kldstat would tell you which firewall is running. On Ubuntu (as an example) I have no idea if I should be using nftables, iptables or if ufw is working or not.
  - nequo 2y ago
    > both Ubuntu and Rocky Linux hosts This is a little like comparing FreeBSD with macOS. Their userlands share similarities but they are different operating systems.
    - hedora 2y ago
      That's the main problem with Linux these days: Experience with distro A rarely transfers to distro B. Also, at least with Ubuntu, switching to a new LTS means that most administration tools have been replaced with different (usually buggier) ones, so knowledge of the old release doesn't necessarily transfer either. It wasn't this way in the early days, but the community focus stopped aligning with end user interest about a decade go. At that point fragmentation + complexity exploded.
- dazzawazza 2y ago
  As well as what others have said: With FreeBSD things change over time, this is a a given. But I can always use the release notes and the FreeBSD handbook to resolve any issues. With GNU/Linux things change and the lack of authoritative documentation is tiresome. I end up on Stack-overflow triaging legacy posts from sources I just cannot trust. Is FreeBSD perfect? No of course not. Is Linux a complete waste of time? No of course not! BUT my time is better spent in FreeBSD (and yes even windows) than Linux.
  - drewg123 2y ago
    The big problem I have as BSD person who occasionally needs linux for something is that the google search results are terrible. Even when specifying the OS, I often get incorrect results that show how one would do what I want to do 8 years ago, when the tools were different.
    - nmz 2y ago
      Its a userbase problem, nothing anybody can do about it.
  - ssl-3 2y ago
    Many Linux distros have handbooks and release notes, too. https://www.debian.org/doc/user-manuals https://www.debian.org/doc/user-manuals (How deep do you want to go?)
- cduzz 2y ago
  Long ago, it was that a linux system was "linux kernel, big pile of random GNU utilities for userland" while a BSD was "every utility is written by the same team." This ends up with the documentation "working" and very consistent vs a linux (jeez, no man pages, what the heck is this "info" crap?). Things are better now, especially in the documentation front, but it remains that the "gnu" ecosystem is still a hodgepodge of different utilities written by different teams at different times and there are still inconsistencies. I've spent decades in the linux ecosystem and away from "unix" so the memories are hazy and the brain damage (from linux) permanent at this point; the fish no longer notices the water.
  - freedomben 2y ago
    Yes, this has been my experience as well, even at the kernel level. I actually enjoy looking at and hacking on BSD kernel code. Linux kernel code is ... another story. But I tend to think the difficulty with Linux/GNU is more a result of the enormously larger community and the huge diversity of use cases. For example if you stick with a complete vendor (Red Hat being the best example) among the system tools is a fair amount of consistency and documentation (man pages). As you accumulate more applications and extra tools, that's where the community fragmentation really hits. This is most intensely felt when I try to set up a workstation (laptop or desktop) with a BSD. Even discounting hardware support, I run into so many things where BSD is consistent because in part because it doesn't exist there. I still have a dream though that one day BSD will start becoming the GOTO for various places. Though, I think how Apple took it and made it common but also locked it down, I have my suspicions that the permissive licensing (which as a developer I really love) does seem to end up being taken by big tech to get huge profits and used without giving (much) back.
- toast0 2y ago
  I have a job with Linux again, so I set up a dev vm, and I've got prod hosts on gcp that run our application in a container... On prod, I have to use ifconfig, because ip isn't installed. On dev, I have to use ip, because ifconfig is 'obsolete'. Same deal with netstat vs ss. Those are the big ones for me. I don't particularly care about the progression of firewalls on Linux, it seems like one day it will be back to one, but FreeBSD has always had three and I use two of them simultaneously, so how can I complain?
  - Mister_Snuggles 2y ago
    It seems like the real problem is that you've got a ton of drift between your Prod and Dev environments. How old is your Prod compared to your Dev? Since you're running something in a container, you should be able to upgrade the host OS (more accurately, recreate the hosts with current images) very easily. I wouldn't expect there to be more than a few weeks of drift between Prod and Dev.
    - toast0 2y ago
      Our GCP prod is running google's container optimized os [1], something relatively current? But the container we run our app in is debian something, and my dev environment matches that... But when I go to prod, I don't go into the container, because a) I don't really understand how? b) I don't need to anyway; I can do almost all the stuff that needs doing without getting a shell into the container. The real problem is that ifconfig can do the job, but nobody wanted to modify it, so they built a new tool, but both tools still work, and nobody is going to cleanse the world of ifconfig. Same deal for netstat vs ss. ss does the same job as netstat, but supposedly faster or better? but they could have made netstat better and didn't. In the meantime, causing churn and leaving a wake of broken documentation and frustrated users. I didn't pick the environment, it was there, and I don't have enough authority to change the environment that much, I'm just working part time, and I want to get in, do my work, and get out. It sucks having to use two different tools for the same thing, all over the place. If I had an open offer to come work part time with a former boss at a place running FreeBSD and Erlang, I'd have taken it, but I got Linux and Rust instead, so I'm dealing with it :P Of course, FreeBSD isn't perfect either. I've just updated a machine to FreeBSD 14, to find that I can no longer use the command ifconfig pfsync vlandev main vlan 4 192.168.4.11/24 because I get an error ifconfig: both vlan and vlandev must be specified Instead, I've got to put the vlan number first. So I've got that to chase down, and freebsd-update was also very slow, so I've got that to chase down too. [1] https://cloud.google.com/container-optimized-os/docs/ https://cloud.google.com/container-optimized-os/docs/
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  As others have alluded, greater Linux is awash with too many choices for every component, like a walmart supermarket, not to mention CADT-driven development. https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html (cut/paste link) BSD is closer to "omakase" in that sense. Pick your cliche... people "rowing in the same direction," "more wood behind fewer arrows," etc.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

aeonik 2y ago

Everyone who uses BSD says the same thing, but it's still unclear to me what you mean. What inconsistencies does Linux have that BSD does not? I've looked for an explanation, but I only get high level explanations, or specific features like jails. You wouldn't happen to have more information, would you?

kstrauser 2y ago
My Debian server has a mix of systemd and /etc/init.d startup scripts. That’s the sort of thing where a BSD would be likely to say, ok, as of version N due in 3 months, we’re migrating everything and going from 100% old way to 100% new way.
- cesarb 2y ago
  > My Debian server has a mix of systemd and /etc/init.d startup scripts. [...] ok, as of version N due in 3 months, we’re migrating everything and going from 100% old way to 100% new way. You'll be happy to know that this is going to happen. Quoting https://github.com/systemd/systemd/blob/v255/NEWS https://github.com/systemd/systemd/blob/v255/NEWS > Support for System V service scripts is now deprecated and will be removed in a future release. Please make sure to update your software now to include a native systemd unit file instead of a legacy System V script to retain compatibility with future systemd releases.
  - kstrauser 2y ago
    Eh, I don’t really care either way. The ones I really care about are in my shell history. I meant that more as an example of where the BSD way would be different. Since they manage all of the software together, it’s much easier for them to do wholesale migrations like that.
  - wrycoder 2y ago
    Who can keep up with that? OpenBSD is a placid pond by comparison.
unilynx 2y ago
firewalls. is it iptables, nftables? what is iptables-nft and iptables-legacy doing in this mix? or was I supposed to manage them with firewallctl or ufw? network settings. if-up scripts? NetworkManager? Are we already supposed to use that systemd-network thingy or is it still not ready ? I just need to add an IP address in addition to the one given by DHCP... who is managing /etc/resolv.conf today? (my regular frustrations when dealing with both Ubuntu and Rocky Linux hosts..)
- epcoa 2y ago
  > firewalls This seems like not the best example since FreeBSD has 3 implementations that may be in use depending on the whims of the sysadmin.
  - antranigv 2y ago
    FreeBSD has 3 different firewalls, not 3 different interfaces to the same firewall. Each firewall has its own purpose. IPF is lightweight, pf has a nice UI/UX, ipfw is very integrated into the system. More importantly, doing a simple kldstat would tell you which firewall is running. On Ubuntu (as an example) I have no idea if I should be using nftables, iptables or if ufw is working or not.
- nequo 2y ago
  > both Ubuntu and Rocky Linux hosts This is a little like comparing FreeBSD with macOS. Their userlands share similarities but they are different operating systems.
  - hedora 2y ago
    That's the main problem with Linux these days: Experience with distro A rarely transfers to distro B. Also, at least with Ubuntu, switching to a new LTS means that most administration tools have been replaced with different (usually buggier) ones, so knowledge of the old release doesn't necessarily transfer either. It wasn't this way in the early days, but the community focus stopped aligning with end user interest about a decade go. At that point fragmentation + complexity exploded.
dazzawazza 2y ago
As well as what others have said: With FreeBSD things change over time, this is a a given. But I can always use the release notes and the FreeBSD handbook to resolve any issues. With GNU/Linux things change and the lack of authoritative documentation is tiresome. I end up on Stack-overflow triaging legacy posts from sources I just cannot trust. Is FreeBSD perfect? No of course not. Is Linux a complete waste of time? No of course not! BUT my time is better spent in FreeBSD (and yes even windows) than Linux.
- drewg123 2y ago
  The big problem I have as BSD person who occasionally needs linux for something is that the google search results are terrible. Even when specifying the OS, I often get incorrect results that show how one would do what I want to do 8 years ago, when the tools were different.
  - nmz 2y ago
    Its a userbase problem, nothing anybody can do about it.
- ssl-3 2y ago
  Many Linux distros have handbooks and release notes, too. https://www.debian.org/doc/user-manuals https://www.debian.org/doc/user-manuals (How deep do you want to go?)
cduzz 2y ago
Long ago, it was that a linux system was "linux kernel, big pile of random GNU utilities for userland" while a BSD was "every utility is written by the same team." This ends up with the documentation "working" and very consistent vs a linux (jeez, no man pages, what the heck is this "info" crap?). Things are better now, especially in the documentation front, but it remains that the "gnu" ecosystem is still a hodgepodge of different utilities written by different teams at different times and there are still inconsistencies. I've spent decades in the linux ecosystem and away from "unix" so the memories are hazy and the brain damage (from linux) permanent at this point; the fish no longer notices the water.
- freedomben 2y ago
  Yes, this has been my experience as well, even at the kernel level. I actually enjoy looking at and hacking on BSD kernel code. Linux kernel code is ... another story. But I tend to think the difficulty with Linux/GNU is more a result of the enormously larger community and the huge diversity of use cases. For example if you stick with a complete vendor (Red Hat being the best example) among the system tools is a fair amount of consistency and documentation (man pages). As you accumulate more applications and extra tools, that's where the community fragmentation really hits. This is most intensely felt when I try to set up a workstation (laptop or desktop) with a BSD. Even discounting hardware support, I run into so many things where BSD is consistent because in part because it doesn't exist there. I still have a dream though that one day BSD will start becoming the GOTO for various places. Though, I think how Apple took it and made it common but also locked it down, I have my suspicions that the permissive licensing (which as a developer I really love) does seem to end up being taken by big tech to get huge profits and used without giving (much) back.
toast0 2y ago
I have a job with Linux again, so I set up a dev vm, and I've got prod hosts on gcp that run our application in a container... On prod, I have to use ifconfig, because ip isn't installed. On dev, I have to use ip, because ifconfig is 'obsolete'. Same deal with netstat vs ss. Those are the big ones for me. I don't particularly care about the progression of firewalls on Linux, it seems like one day it will be back to one, but FreeBSD has always had three and I use two of them simultaneously, so how can I complain?
- Mister_Snuggles 2y ago
  It seems like the real problem is that you've got a ton of drift between your Prod and Dev environments. How old is your Prod compared to your Dev? Since you're running something in a container, you should be able to upgrade the host OS (more accurately, recreate the hosts with current images) very easily. I wouldn't expect there to be more than a few weeks of drift between Prod and Dev.
  - toast0 2y ago
    Our GCP prod is running google's container optimized os [1], something relatively current? But the container we run our app in is debian something, and my dev environment matches that... But when I go to prod, I don't go into the container, because a) I don't really understand how? b) I don't need to anyway; I can do almost all the stuff that needs doing without getting a shell into the container. The real problem is that ifconfig can do the job, but nobody wanted to modify it, so they built a new tool, but both tools still work, and nobody is going to cleanse the world of ifconfig. Same deal for netstat vs ss. ss does the same job as netstat, but supposedly faster or better? but they could have made netstat better and didn't. In the meantime, causing churn and leaving a wake of broken documentation and frustrated users. I didn't pick the environment, it was there, and I don't have enough authority to change the environment that much, I'm just working part time, and I want to get in, do my work, and get out. It sucks having to use two different tools for the same thing, all over the place. If I had an open offer to come work part time with a former boss at a place running FreeBSD and Erlang, I'd have taken it, but I got Linux and Rust instead, so I'm dealing with it :P Of course, FreeBSD isn't perfect either. I've just updated a machine to FreeBSD 14, to find that I can no longer use the command ifconfig pfsync vlandev main vlan 4 192.168.4.11/24 because I get an error ifconfig: both vlan and vlandev must be specified Instead, I've got to put the vlan number first. So I've got that to chase down, and freebsd-update was also very slow, so I've got that to chase down too. [1] https://cloud.google.com/container-optimized-os/docs/ https://cloud.google.com/container-optimized-os/docs/
mixmastamyk 2y ago
As others have alluded, greater Linux is awash with too many choices for every component, like a walmart supermarket, not to mention CADT-driven development. https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html (cut/paste link) BSD is closer to "omakase" in that sense. Pick your cliche... people "rowing in the same direction," "more wood behind fewer arrows," etc.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]