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A digital audio file is not even close to being proof of anything. Even without voice cloning you can easily edit, clip and compose audio into almost anything y

A digital audio file is not even close to being proof of anything. Even without voice cloning you can easily edit, clip and compose audio into almost anything you want. It’s also not difficult to simply impersonate someone else’s manner of speaking with practice something that is commonly done by both amateurs and professional actors. The only thing that changes is the ease with which this can be done which should help everyone understand how unreliable such “proof” is.

colecut 2y ago
When dealing with social conflicts, there is very rarely "proof", just evidence In courts of law, digital tapes have been frequently used as evidence.
- exe34 2y ago
  The thing about evidence is that it can be contested. I imagine that in the cases you refer to, one side presented them as evidence and the other side said oh bugger, you got me. If they had reason to believe the audio had been tempered with, or entirely fabricated, they would then bring expert witnesses and eventually the other side would have to offer more evidence that it was not tampered - often this sort of thing comes down to "under oath, I swear I recorded this at the date/time and the subject on the tape is $name". This might not be enough to convict or exonerate, but it'll then count as part of the case.
  - close04 2y ago
    > The thing about evidence is that it can be contested. The danger is in the court of public opinion where just having the conversation is damage enough. If you have to go out there and fight it then you give it even more visibility and it takes your focus and resources away from more useful activities. At the end of the day many people only remember the accusation, not what comes after.
    - exe34 2y ago
      > At the end of the day many people only remember the accusation, not what comes after. Never a better time to learn the dichotomy of control. What is in your control is your thoughts and your actions. Outside of your control are: you body, your reputation, your wealth, you health, etc. It matters what you choose to do, but the outcomes are out of your control.
- bo1024 2y ago
  One thing that surprised me, as a juror, was that nobody ever simply submitted a piece of evidence. Each of the hundreds of exhibits was presented with a person on the stand attesting to its provenance, under penalty of perjury.
croes 2y ago
Easily for people who what to do. Now it's easy for everyone.
nolok 2y ago
I don't know the political situation in your country, but all I will say is that the putin-aligned far right wing in mine uses very much fake quote and deep fake videos and things like that to propagate ideas, and that their "followers" eat it up, and then you either have to let those non truth remain or you spend all your energy fighting them / defending yourself, making you look guilty. And in the past 3/4 years (and it exploded with covid), it's the followers themselves that now start those things. For AI, those AI move it to "someone with some dedication can do it" to "anyone with a computer can do it".
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  They do it here too, especially obvious in political campaign ads but no doubt the established powers do it to maintain their own image as well.
tyingq 2y ago
Legal opinions don't seem to have caught up... https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-258-admissibility-spectrograms-voice-prints https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual...
telesilla 2y ago
Sounds like a remake of Sneakers is needed--with a fresh take on impersonation and social engineering, to remind people what's possible and potentially dangerous.
jilijeanlouis 2y ago
There are actually a big opportunity for companies like loccus: https://www.loccus.ai/ https://www.loccus.ai/

colecut 2y ago

When dealing with social conflicts, there is very rarely "proof", just evidence In courts of law, digital tapes have been frequently used as evidence.

exe34 2y ago
The thing about evidence is that it can be contested. I imagine that in the cases you refer to, one side presented them as evidence and the other side said oh bugger, you got me. If they had reason to believe the audio had been tempered with, or entirely fabricated, they would then bring expert witnesses and eventually the other side would have to offer more evidence that it was not tampered - often this sort of thing comes down to "under oath, I swear I recorded this at the date/time and the subject on the tape is $name". This might not be enough to convict or exonerate, but it'll then count as part of the case.
- close04 2y ago
  > The thing about evidence is that it can be contested. The danger is in the court of public opinion where just having the conversation is damage enough. If you have to go out there and fight it then you give it even more visibility and it takes your focus and resources away from more useful activities. At the end of the day many people only remember the accusation, not what comes after.
  - exe34 2y ago
    > At the end of the day many people only remember the accusation, not what comes after. Never a better time to learn the dichotomy of control. What is in your control is your thoughts and your actions. Outside of your control are: you body, your reputation, your wealth, you health, etc. It matters what you choose to do, but the outcomes are out of your control.
bo1024 2y ago
One thing that surprised me, as a juror, was that nobody ever simply submitted a piece of evidence. Each of the hundreds of exhibits was presented with a person on the stand attesting to its provenance, under penalty of perjury.

croes 2y ago

Easily for people who what to do. Now it's easy for everyone.

nolok 2y ago

I don't know the political situation in your country, but all I will say is that the putin-aligned far right wing in mine uses very much fake quote and deep fake videos and things like that to propagate ideas, and that their "followers" eat it up, and then you either have to let those non truth remain or you spend all your energy fighting them / defending yourself, making you look guilty. And in the past 3/4 years (and it exploded with covid), it's the followers themselves that now start those things. For AI, those AI move it to "someone with some dedication can do it" to "anyone with a computer can do it".

SoftTalker 2y ago
They do it here too, especially obvious in political campaign ads but no doubt the established powers do it to maintain their own image as well.

tyingq 2y ago

Legal opinions don't seem to have caught up... https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-258-admissibility-spectrograms-voice-prints https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual...

telesilla 2y ago

Sounds like a remake of Sneakers is needed--with a fresh take on impersonation and social engineering, to remind people what's possible and potentially dangerous.

jilijeanlouis 2y ago

There are actually a big opportunity for companies like loccus: https://www.loccus.ai/ https://www.loccus.ai/