4 ms·

could I ask what kinds of positions the 'extreme American left' takes on issues to distinguish them from the moderate left?

pc86 2y ago
At the risk of engaging in what I'm sure will be a very even-headed and reasonable dialogue, I can think of a handful of things that the moderate American left would do / agree on that the more extreme elements would not. And just because you have to bend over backwards to avoid getting shadowbanned or flagged for even mentioning any of these, I'm not telling anyone where I stand on any of these things. Some I agree with, some I don't. It doesn't matter. 1. Israel has a right to exist and should not just pack up and leave Gaza. 2. Children who are not old enough to get a loan are also not old enough to consent to surgery or hormone blockers. 3. If you transition from male to female you should not be allowed to participate in women's sports. 4. Women's pro athletes getting paid a fraction of what male pro athletes do is a function of supply and demand and is not inherently sexist. 5. There are root causes to the disproportionate incarceration of African Americans that do not boil down to "the system is racist." 6. Taxes should be used to raise revenue in order to provide social and other government services, not as punishment. None of those positions are inherently conservative and all of them could be held by a popular mainstream Democratic member of Congress or Presidential candidate. All of them (or any of them if voiced loudly enough) would get you ostracized from leftist group.
- k8svet 2y ago
  With those framings, you don't really need to tell us much more.
- runarberg 2y ago
  As a person firmly in the American political left, I have to disagree with all but one of those (point 6 holds true). 1. If you don’t want Israel’s genocidal war against Gaza to stop, you are not a leftist. 2. If you don’t want trans children to get correct healthcare, you are not a leftist. 3. If you want to discriminate against LGBTQ+ people, you are not a leftist. 4. If you don’t want to fix the gender wage gap, you are not a leftist. 5. If you hold racist views, you are not a leftist. 6. The radical left has many different views on taxes. I want to eat the rich, but many on the left do indeed want taxes only to be used as funding of social services. I’m aware I’m committing No true Scotsman fallacy here. However I don’t see people that hold these views to align anywhere close to me politically—not even moderately. On the left we call people that hold these views conservative democrats, and at best we call them centrists, never moderate leftists. The only people that call them “moderates” are the conservative democrats them selves (and maybe some republicans). I’m also aware that there is a (very small) faction of communists and tankies, particularly in the UK, which holds anti-trans and racist views, and would agree with points 2, 3, and 5, however, even among communists, they are very niche and still very extreme, so definitely not moderate American left.
  - dev_by_day 2y ago
    The beautiful thing about about groups and diversity is you don't get to decide who is and isn't a leftist. Many would say the same about you given how polarizing your being. You have literally zero legitimacy or authority to define what leftism is, it doesn't belong to you.
    - runarberg 2y ago
      I did admit to blatantly commit the No true Scotsman fallacy. Deciding who does and doesn’t belong in you political faction is ultimately going to result in arbitrary distinction and characterization. Me as a leftist does not want to be politically aligned with anti-LGBTQ+, anti-feminists, and racists. These aren’t a moderate versions of my and my comrade political beliefs (except the 6th one), they are counter to them. So, as a radical leftist, I do disavow these claims, and don’t want them anywhere near me on the political spectrum.
      - dev_by_day 2y ago
        I do very much appreciate that within the spectrum of the american left/liberals we have those view points. Edit: to clarify i mean the view points that disagreed with the 6 up above. I would never want to be in a monoculture where those view points are censored or shut down. It has unfortunately become more common in authoritarian states and even peaceful protests here on campuses.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        dev_by_day 2y ago
        Sorry to clarify I meant I appreciate the view points you posted by "those", not the ones prior to it(hence i mentioned college campuses in reference to pro-Palestine protests)
  - pc86 2y ago
    You can be liberal / on the left and not be a leftist. Being extreme on the left should be viewed as negatively as it is to be extreme on the right. Extreme opinions of any kind are not conducive to living with people whose beliefs differ from yours. I mean in another comment you refer to yourself as "a radical leftist" so that sort of proves my point. The points above can be held by liberal, left-of-center politicians who have a chance at holding national political office in the US. Mainstream Democrats, or at least what used to be a mainstream Democrat 10 years ago.

pc86 2y ago

At the risk of engaging in what I'm sure will be a very even-headed and reasonable dialogue, I can think of a handful of things that the moderate American left would do / agree on that the more extreme elements would not. And just because you have to bend over backwards to avoid getting shadowbanned or flagged for even mentioning any of these, I'm not telling anyone where I stand on any of these things. Some I agree with, some I don't. It doesn't matter. 1. Israel has a right to exist and should not just pack up and leave Gaza. 2. Children who are not old enough to get a loan are also not old enough to consent to surgery or hormone blockers. 3. If you transition from male to female you should not be allowed to participate in women's sports. 4. Women's pro athletes getting paid a fraction of what male pro athletes do is a function of supply and demand and is not inherently sexist. 5. There are root causes to the disproportionate incarceration of African Americans that do not boil down to "the system is racist." 6. Taxes should be used to raise revenue in order to provide social and other government services, not as punishment. None of those positions are inherently conservative and all of them could be held by a popular mainstream Democratic member of Congress or Presidential candidate. All of them (or any of them if voiced loudly enough) would get you ostracized from leftist group.

k8svet 2y ago
With those framings, you don't really need to tell us much more.
runarberg 2y ago
As a person firmly in the American political left, I have to disagree with all but one of those (point 6 holds true). 1. If you don’t want Israel’s genocidal war against Gaza to stop, you are not a leftist. 2. If you don’t want trans children to get correct healthcare, you are not a leftist. 3. If you want to discriminate against LGBTQ+ people, you are not a leftist. 4. If you don’t want to fix the gender wage gap, you are not a leftist. 5. If you hold racist views, you are not a leftist. 6. The radical left has many different views on taxes. I want to eat the rich, but many on the left do indeed want taxes only to be used as funding of social services. I’m aware I’m committing No true Scotsman fallacy here. However I don’t see people that hold these views to align anywhere close to me politically—not even moderately. On the left we call people that hold these views conservative democrats, and at best we call them centrists, never moderate leftists. The only people that call them “moderates” are the conservative democrats them selves (and maybe some republicans). I’m also aware that there is a (very small) faction of communists and tankies, particularly in the UK, which holds anti-trans and racist views, and would agree with points 2, 3, and 5, however, even among communists, they are very niche and still very extreme, so definitely not moderate American left.
- dev_by_day 2y ago
  The beautiful thing about about groups and diversity is you don't get to decide who is and isn't a leftist. Many would say the same about you given how polarizing your being. You have literally zero legitimacy or authority to define what leftism is, it doesn't belong to you.
  - runarberg 2y ago
    I did admit to blatantly commit the No true Scotsman fallacy. Deciding who does and doesn’t belong in you political faction is ultimately going to result in arbitrary distinction and characterization. Me as a leftist does not want to be politically aligned with anti-LGBTQ+, anti-feminists, and racists. These aren’t a moderate versions of my and my comrade political beliefs (except the 6th one), they are counter to them. So, as a radical leftist, I do disavow these claims, and don’t want them anywhere near me on the political spectrum.
    - dev_by_day 2y ago
      I do very much appreciate that within the spectrum of the american left/liberals we have those view points. Edit: to clarify i mean the view points that disagreed with the 6 up above. I would never want to be in a monoculture where those view points are censored or shut down. It has unfortunately become more common in authoritarian states and even peaceful protests here on campuses.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - dev_by_day 2y ago
        Sorry to clarify I meant I appreciate the view points you posted by "those", not the ones prior to it(hence i mentioned college campuses in reference to pro-Palestine protests)
- pc86 2y ago
  You can be liberal / on the left and not be a leftist. Being extreme on the left should be viewed as negatively as it is to be extreme on the right. Extreme opinions of any kind are not conducive to living with people whose beliefs differ from yours. I mean in another comment you refer to yourself as "a radical leftist" so that sort of proves my point. The points above can be held by liberal, left-of-center politicians who have a chance at holding national political office in the US. Mainstream Democrats, or at least what used to be a mainstream Democrat 10 years ago.