3 ms·

That’s not “organic”, that’s Kroger / Trader Joe’s grade groceries for 4 people. Middle class, to me, means “has shelter, is able to save for retirement, raise

by ein0p 3y ago

That’s not “organic”, that’s Kroger / Trader Joe’s grade groceries for 4 people. Middle class, to me, means “has shelter, is able to save for retirement, raise kids, and doesn’t have to worry about going bankrupt due to medical expenses”. I’m not willing to compromise on any of those things to define “middle class” more conveniently for the ruling class.

hrrbhgrrggb 3y ago
There’s like 3 cities in the country where 220k gross is not in the 90th+ percentile. In Minneapolis for instance you’d be at 95th percentile HHI. You are doing very well. You are just overspending.
- ein0p 3y ago
  Facepalm. Go to SF or Seattle or NYC with your family of 4 and then let me know if I’m “overspending”.
  - arghnoname 3y ago
    It's been interesting to see the different financial perspectives on the threads here. I don't know if people haven't done the math or just think a middle-class lifestyle is supposed to be living in mortal terror of an unexpected bill or expense. I personally think of it as an aspirational descriptor, maybe on par with the lifestyle a single union-employed factory laborer could have afforded many decades prior. I don't care if that now requires a 90% income. We're a wealthy country, that's reasonable. If living in the 50th percentile is a fraught subsistence wage...that's a problem! My guess is $220K for a family of four if you don't already own a house is not excessive at all. Housing is bonkers. Owning the real estate free and clear would make a big difference, but if I "only" had $220K to retire on and had to pay my rent, I'd move somewhere cheaper and I like it here.
  - pokerface_86 3y ago
    [dead]
  - hrrbhgrrggb 3y ago
    3 cities. You could move.
    - ein0p 3y ago
      Read my op to the end. Yes, I will have to move in order to be able to retire. That was my whole point.
medvezhenok 3y ago
If you go to MIT's living wage calculator, they do the math for you. For a family of four living in SF, they estimate ~$15,400/year in food costs (a bit higher than what I said, but still way less than $24K. Same for housing - they put the costs at ~$35K / year. The big difference is family of 4 with 2 working (childcare costs) versus only one working - in the former case, living wage (read: middle class wage) for a family of four is ~$164K in SF, and in the latter it is only $113K (as I mentioned in my previous comment). https://livingwage.mit.edu/metros/41860 https://livingwage.mit.edu/metros/41860
- ein0p 3y ago
  That data is most likely pre-Biden. Today, beef is twice what it was 2 years ago.

by ein0p 3y ago

hrrbhgrrggb 3y ago

There’s like 3 cities in the country where 220k gross is not in the 90th+ percentile. In Minneapolis for instance you’d be at 95th percentile HHI. You are doing very well. You are just overspending.

ein0p 3y ago
Facepalm. Go to SF or Seattle or NYC with your family of 4 and then let me know if I’m “overspending”.
- arghnoname 3y ago
  It's been interesting to see the different financial perspectives on the threads here. I don't know if people haven't done the math or just think a middle-class lifestyle is supposed to be living in mortal terror of an unexpected bill or expense. I personally think of it as an aspirational descriptor, maybe on par with the lifestyle a single union-employed factory laborer could have afforded many decades prior. I don't care if that now requires a 90% income. We're a wealthy country, that's reasonable. If living in the 50th percentile is a fraught subsistence wage...that's a problem! My guess is $220K for a family of four if you don't already own a house is not excessive at all. Housing is bonkers. Owning the real estate free and clear would make a big difference, but if I "only" had $220K to retire on and had to pay my rent, I'd move somewhere cheaper and I like it here.
- pokerface_86 3y ago
  [dead]
- hrrbhgrrggb 3y ago
  3 cities. You could move.
  - ein0p 3y ago
    Read my op to the end. Yes, I will have to move in order to be able to retire. That was my whole point.

medvezhenok 3y ago

If you go to MIT's living wage calculator, they do the math for you. For a family of four living in SF, they estimate ~$15,400/year in food costs (a bit higher than what I said, but still way less than $24K. Same for housing - they put the costs at ~$35K / year. The big difference is family of 4 with 2 working (childcare costs) versus only one working - in the former case, living wage (read: middle class wage) for a family of four is ~$164K in SF, and in the latter it is only $113K (as I mentioned in my previous comment). https://livingwage.mit.edu/metros/41860 https://livingwage.mit.edu/metros/41860

ein0p 3y ago
That data is most likely pre-Biden. Today, beef is twice what it was 2 years ago.