4 ms·

Those expenses sound quite high, that is the problem. Middle class is still couponing - groceries should be half that at best. Just don’t eat organic or top qua

Those expenses sound quite high, that is the problem. Middle class is still couponing - groceries should be half that at best. Just don’t eat organic or top quality cuts. Even in HCOL it is possible to rent a passable 2-bedroom for 36K a year. And a house with 18K property tax does not sound middle class to me at all. It just that we’ve severely stretched the definition of middle class and people’s expectations in the US are too high. That’s why immigrants will eat your lunch any day. Childcare is the one expense that unfortunately hits middle class the hardest, no way around it. I think there’s room there to relax the regulations around childcare a bit (allow at home daycares, relax max number of children limit) - availability at this point might be more important than quality.

ein0p 2y ago
That’s not “organic”, that’s Kroger / Trader Joe’s grade groceries for 4 people. Middle class, to me, means “has shelter, is able to save for retirement, raise kids, and doesn’t have to worry about going bankrupt due to medical expenses”. I’m not willing to compromise on any of those things to define “middle class” more conveniently for the ruling class.
- hrrbhgrrggb 2y ago
  There’s like 3 cities in the country where 220k gross is not in the 90th+ percentile. In Minneapolis for instance you’d be at 95th percentile HHI. You are doing very well. You are just overspending.
  - ein0p 2y ago
    Facepalm. Go to SF or Seattle or NYC with your family of 4 and then let me know if I’m “overspending”.
    - arghnoname 2y ago
      It's been interesting to see the different financial perspectives on the threads here. I don't know if people haven't done the math or just think a middle-class lifestyle is supposed to be living in mortal terror of an unexpected bill or expense. I personally think of it as an aspirational descriptor, maybe on par with the lifestyle a single union-employed factory laborer could have afforded many decades prior. I don't care if that now requires a 90% income. We're a wealthy country, that's reasonable. If living in the 50th percentile is a fraught subsistence wage...that's a problem! My guess is $220K for a family of four if you don't already own a house is not excessive at all. Housing is bonkers. Owning the real estate free and clear would make a big difference, but if I "only" had $220K to retire on and had to pay my rent, I'd move somewhere cheaper and I like it here.
    - pokerface_86 2y ago
      [dead]
    - hrrbhgrrggb 2y ago
      3 cities. You could move.
      - ein0p 2y ago
        Read my op to the end. Yes, I will have to move in order to be able to retire. That was my whole point.
- medvezhenok 2y ago
  If you go to MIT's living wage calculator, they do the math for you. For a family of four living in SF, they estimate ~$15,400/year in food costs (a bit higher than what I said, but still way less than $24K. Same for housing - they put the costs at ~$35K / year. The big difference is family of 4 with 2 working (childcare costs) versus only one working - in the former case, living wage (read: middle class wage) for a family of four is ~$164K in SF, and in the latter it is only $113K (as I mentioned in my previous comment). https://livingwage.mit.edu/metros/41860 https://livingwage.mit.edu/metros/41860
  - ein0p 2y ago
    That data is most likely pre-Biden. Today, beef is twice what it was 2 years ago.

ein0p 2y ago

That’s not “organic”, that’s Kroger / Trader Joe’s grade groceries for 4 people. Middle class, to me, means “has shelter, is able to save for retirement, raise kids, and doesn’t have to worry about going bankrupt due to medical expenses”. I’m not willing to compromise on any of those things to define “middle class” more conveniently for the ruling class.

hrrbhgrrggb 2y ago
There’s like 3 cities in the country where 220k gross is not in the 90th+ percentile. In Minneapolis for instance you’d be at 95th percentile HHI. You are doing very well. You are just overspending.
- ein0p 2y ago
  Facepalm. Go to SF or Seattle or NYC with your family of 4 and then let me know if I’m “overspending”.
  - arghnoname 2y ago
    It's been interesting to see the different financial perspectives on the threads here. I don't know if people haven't done the math or just think a middle-class lifestyle is supposed to be living in mortal terror of an unexpected bill or expense. I personally think of it as an aspirational descriptor, maybe on par with the lifestyle a single union-employed factory laborer could have afforded many decades prior. I don't care if that now requires a 90% income. We're a wealthy country, that's reasonable. If living in the 50th percentile is a fraught subsistence wage...that's a problem! My guess is $220K for a family of four if you don't already own a house is not excessive at all. Housing is bonkers. Owning the real estate free and clear would make a big difference, but if I "only" had $220K to retire on and had to pay my rent, I'd move somewhere cheaper and I like it here.
  - pokerface_86 2y ago
    [dead]
  - hrrbhgrrggb 2y ago
    3 cities. You could move.
    - ein0p 2y ago
      Read my op to the end. Yes, I will have to move in order to be able to retire. That was my whole point.
medvezhenok 2y ago
If you go to MIT's living wage calculator, they do the math for you. For a family of four living in SF, they estimate ~$15,400/year in food costs (a bit higher than what I said, but still way less than $24K. Same for housing - they put the costs at ~$35K / year. The big difference is family of 4 with 2 working (childcare costs) versus only one working - in the former case, living wage (read: middle class wage) for a family of four is ~$164K in SF, and in the latter it is only $113K (as I mentioned in my previous comment). https://livingwage.mit.edu/metros/41860 https://livingwage.mit.edu/metros/41860
- ein0p 2y ago
  That data is most likely pre-Biden. Today, beef is twice what it was 2 years ago.