6 ms·

I think your interpretation of 'modest middle-class lifestyle' is incredibly skewed. That level of net income is, minimally, a 220K gross income. That is more t

I think your interpretation of 'modest middle-class lifestyle' is incredibly skewed. That level of net income is, minimally, a 220K gross income. That is more than 90%+ of households make. By definition, earning in the 90th percentile means you're well above middle-class.

ein0p 2y ago
If you’re in rural Minnesota that might be true. But there are no tech jobs in rural Minnesota. And where I live rent alone can run $50K a year, and mortgage is scary to even think about nowadays. Then there’s $20K in medical insurance (before deductibles), which if you do not work you’d have to pay yourself. Then also $24-25K/yr for groceries, and $6-7K for utilities. Then there’s car insurance, and home insurance. That’s $100K already and we didn’t even get to disposable income, home maintenance (I just paid $30K for a rather modest master bathroom remodel), subscriptions, and a modest vacation once a year. For most people there’s also a car loan or two to worry about. Also I own a house, and the property tax alone is $18K/yr. There you go.
- medvezhenok 2y ago
  Those expenses sound quite high, that is the problem. Middle class is still couponing - groceries should be half that at best. Just don’t eat organic or top quality cuts. Even in HCOL it is possible to rent a passable 2-bedroom for 36K a year. And a house with 18K property tax does not sound middle class to me at all. It just that we’ve severely stretched the definition of middle class and people’s expectations in the US are too high. That’s why immigrants will eat your lunch any day. Childcare is the one expense that unfortunately hits middle class the hardest, no way around it. I think there’s room there to relax the regulations around childcare a bit (allow at home daycares, relax max number of children limit) - availability at this point might be more important than quality.
  - ein0p 2y ago
    That’s not “organic”, that’s Kroger / Trader Joe’s grade groceries for 4 people. Middle class, to me, means “has shelter, is able to save for retirement, raise kids, and doesn’t have to worry about going bankrupt due to medical expenses”. I’m not willing to compromise on any of those things to define “middle class” more conveniently for the ruling class.
    - hrrbhgrrggb 2y ago
      There’s like 3 cities in the country where 220k gross is not in the 90th+ percentile. In Minneapolis for instance you’d be at 95th percentile HHI. You are doing very well. You are just overspending.
      - ein0p 2y ago
        Facepalm. Go to SF or Seattle or NYC with your family of 4 and then let me know if I’m “overspending”.
        arghnoname 2y ago
        It's been interesting to see the different financial perspectives on the threads here. I don't know if people haven't done the math or just think a middle-class lifestyle is supposed to be living in mortal terror of an unexpected bill or expense. I personally think of it as an aspirational descriptor, maybe on par with the lifestyle a single union-employed factory laborer could have afforded many decades prior. I don't care if that now requires a 90% income. We're a wealthy country, that's reasonable. If living in the 50th percentile is a fraught subsistence wage...that's a problem! My guess is $220K for a family of four if you don't already own a house is not excessive at all. Housing is bonkers. Owning the real estate free and clear would make a big difference, but if I "only" had $220K to retire on and had to pay my rent, I'd move somewhere cheaper and I like it here.
        pokerface_86 2y ago
        [dead]
        2y ago

ein0p 2y ago

If you’re in rural Minnesota that might be true. But there are no tech jobs in rural Minnesota. And where I live rent alone can run $50K a year, and mortgage is scary to even think about nowadays. Then there’s $20K in medical insurance (before deductibles), which if you do not work you’d have to pay yourself. Then also $24-25K/yr for groceries, and $6-7K for utilities. Then there’s car insurance, and home insurance. That’s $100K already and we didn’t even get to disposable income, home maintenance (I just paid $30K for a rather modest master bathroom remodel), subscriptions, and a modest vacation once a year. For most people there’s also a car loan or two to worry about. Also I own a house, and the property tax alone is $18K/yr. There you go.

medvezhenok 2y ago
Those expenses sound quite high, that is the problem. Middle class is still couponing - groceries should be half that at best. Just don’t eat organic or top quality cuts. Even in HCOL it is possible to rent a passable 2-bedroom for 36K a year. And a house with 18K property tax does not sound middle class to me at all. It just that we’ve severely stretched the definition of middle class and people’s expectations in the US are too high. That’s why immigrants will eat your lunch any day. Childcare is the one expense that unfortunately hits middle class the hardest, no way around it. I think there’s room there to relax the regulations around childcare a bit (allow at home daycares, relax max number of children limit) - availability at this point might be more important than quality.
- ein0p 2y ago
  That’s not “organic”, that’s Kroger / Trader Joe’s grade groceries for 4 people. Middle class, to me, means “has shelter, is able to save for retirement, raise kids, and doesn’t have to worry about going bankrupt due to medical expenses”. I’m not willing to compromise on any of those things to define “middle class” more conveniently for the ruling class.
  - hrrbhgrrggb 2y ago
    There’s like 3 cities in the country where 220k gross is not in the 90th+ percentile. In Minneapolis for instance you’d be at 95th percentile HHI. You are doing very well. You are just overspending.
    - ein0p 2y ago
      Facepalm. Go to SF or Seattle or NYC with your family of 4 and then let me know if I’m “overspending”.
      - arghnoname 2y ago
        It's been interesting to see the different financial perspectives on the threads here. I don't know if people haven't done the math or just think a middle-class lifestyle is supposed to be living in mortal terror of an unexpected bill or expense. I personally think of it as an aspirational descriptor, maybe on par with the lifestyle a single union-employed factory laborer could have afforded many decades prior. I don't care if that now requires a 90% income. We're a wealthy country, that's reasonable. If living in the 50th percentile is a fraught subsistence wage...that's a problem! My guess is $220K for a family of four if you don't already own a house is not excessive at all. Housing is bonkers. Owning the real estate free and clear would make a big difference, but if I "only" had $220K to retire on and had to pay my rent, I'd move somewhere cheaper and I like it here.
      - pokerface_86 2y ago
        [dead]
      - 2y ago