3 ms·

This is a false dichotomy. It is possible to have an opinion and not be an asshole. It just takes more work to do so. The real argument should be "I'm glad <in

This is a false dichotomy. It is possible to have an opinion and not be an asshole. It just takes more work to do so. The real argument should be "I'm glad <insert name here> is a jerk because it allows him to spend more time doing <insert cool thing here>." Personally, I think the extra work is worth it, but I'm also not the hub of a project like Linux, a movement like the FSF, or a company like Apple. Above and beyond everything else, the most interesting question is: Can you get into the hub position without being a prick?

primatology 14y ago
> I'm glad <insert name here> is a jerk because it allows him to spend more time doing <insert cool thing here>. I'm convinced that's a fallacy. Is "[Github's] pull requests and the online commit editing, are just pure garbage, go file a bug report with them" that much easier to voice than "[Github's] pull requests don't provide the flexibility or formatting we need for the kernel, so please read up on the proper pull request procedure. thanks!"? Plus such courtesy eliminates the inevitable outrage of the anti-prick crusade.
- ZenPsycho 14y ago
  Yes, because nobody can calculate in advance the thousands of ways any particular utterance might be interpreted by someone. It's rather neurotic to try, and much easier to just say what you mean, and accept that haters gonna hate.
  - xaa 14y ago
    I don't see that calling people "morons" or their work "garbage" as being that ambiguous.
    - ZenPsycho 14y ago
      exactly
    - 1SaltwaterC 14y ago
      There's a lot of ambiguity in your comment alone by taking things out of their context. "Git comes with a nice pull-request generation module, but github instead decided to replace it with their own totally inferior version. As a result, I consider github useless for these kinds of things. It's fine for hosting, but the pull requests and the online commit editing, are just pure garbage." If you think github people can school Linus at git usage, you're being delusional. There's a reason for that. The "moron" thing was targeted at a troll that deleted his comments. The "moron" comment starts with "Btw, Joseph". Now comes the 1000 points question: where's this Joseph fella in that thread? I've seen the original discussion before the troll deleted his comments. Did you?
      - xaa 14y ago
        If these were isolated incidents, I'd agree with you. We should give Linus the benefit of the doubt because of his substantial contributions to OSS. Unfortunately, this behavior is very well established. To take a few random examples of Linus calling people morons (and mentally diseased, etc) before this: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-misc-discuss/2007-06/msg00084.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-misc-discuss/2007-06/m... https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/1vyfmNCYpi5 https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/1vyfmNCY... http://yarchive.net/comp/linux/hibernation.html http://yarchive.net/comp/linux/hibernation.html https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/1/12/13 https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/1/12/13 The point at issue here is not whether Linus is right. Of course he's probably right -- he's Linus. The question is whether he's being civil. In the case you're referring to, pirtlj's comment was also out of line (although ironically apt to this whole discussion). Linus however did not have to respond the way he did.
- peterkelly 14y ago
  I prefer the first version. Saying something is "pure garbage" gets the point across far more effectively than being polite. I doubt the latter would have resulted in any coverage on tech blogs or got the attention of anyone at github. I don't agree with making direct personal criticisms towards people, but I think it's perfectly acceptable to be very blunt when responding to a bad idea (or patch, or whatever). In my own work I prefer blunt and honest feedback rather than attempts to avoid hurting my emotions. Of course it's always better if that criticism is combined with a constructive suggestions on how to fix the problem.
  - primatology 14y ago
    But Github pull requests are not pure garbage. They work very, very well for plenty of other open source projects. To call them "pure garbage" is clear exaggeration. Honesty and courtesy are not mutually exclusive. "Github pull requests simply do not work for a project the size of the kernel" is terse, blunt, and still polite.
    - peterkelly 14y ago
      > To call them "pure garbage" is clear exaggeration. If that's true then fair enough, and I think your version of the comment is a nice middle ground. I've never actually used github myself, and was only commenting on his tone of voice. If something is truly pure garbage, I think it should be said so, but I guess that's not the case here.
ZenPsycho 14y ago
I don't believe it is possible to get into a hub position without being a prick, because all else being equal, you will always get beaten by someone who /is/ willing to be a prick.
- roguecoder 14y ago
  Unless other people consciously choose not to reward pricks. Natural selection is driven by both the environment and other members of the species. In a field of tit-for-tat always-defect players no longer win.
  - ZenPsycho 14y ago
    I don't think it's a matter of people rewarding the pricks for being pricks. I think that there are certain boundaries that "pricks" are willing to cross that "nice guys" are not willing to cross. Crossing the boundaries may not be nice, or ethical, or popular, but it could make the difference between leading an organisation full of talented people, or rewarding programmers in the team that actually /sap the productivity of others/ and letting them do that, simply because you don't want to be a prick to them.
tytso 14y ago
In order to be the leader of a successful project, there are two key skills that you need to have: (a) you need to set very high standards for you and your development team, (b) you need to be able to rally talented developers to want to work with you and your team. How you treat the less-talented people is not terribly important (at least not in terms of how it effects the success or failure of your project in a direct fashion); and if you are someone who has very high standards, and someone who does not have very high standards but which insists on wanting to "help", it's not surprising if you will end up giving them a short, even brusque answer. Dealing with incompetent people who pester you with github pull requests with crap code or crap commit descriptions is an interesting problem. It's not like a startup, where you can fire them, or put them through a very careful interview screening process and refusing to hire the less talented. So combine this tendency towards perfectionism, and interactions with someone who is more persistent than competent. What do you think will happen? So in answer to your question: Can you get into the hub position while being a prick to talented developers? No, of course not. Do you have to be equally nice and perhaps have to show even more patience to the idiots? No, of course not. And if taking the time to try to educate every single idiot which crosses your path and wants to "help", means that you don't have enough time to push your project ahead, ultimately that can end up hurting the success of your project.
- ericflo 14y ago
  People are not split into two buckets of talented and untalented. People learn, grow, get better (and worse) over time, and have emotions. That github pull request with crap code that "pestered" you could come from someone who turns out to be extremely talented in a year or two.
  - dws 14y ago
    And a smack upside the head now could be what propels them to up their game.
    - primatology 14y ago
      Friendly encouragement is a far better motivator. Psychologists have demonstrated that positive reinforcement causes lasting, long-term change, while negative reinforcement only impels temporary change.
wam 14y ago
I'd say Larry Wall has done a pretty good job in his "Benevolent Dictator of Perl" role. I also appreciate how near this piece comes to channeling Philip Seymour Hoffman's rebuttal to Robin Williams in "Patch Adams." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNN6FI1Gcr8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNN6FI1Gcr8
follower 14y ago
> Can you get into the hub position without being a prick? The two easiest examples to provide are probably Guido van Rossum of Python and Larry Wall of Perl.

primatology 14y ago

> I'm glad <insert name here> is a jerk because it allows him to spend more time doing <insert cool thing here>. I'm convinced that's a fallacy. Is "[Github's] pull requests and the online commit editing, are just pure garbage, go file a bug report with them" that much easier to voice than "[Github's] pull requests don't provide the flexibility or formatting we need for the kernel, so please read up on the proper pull request procedure. thanks!"? Plus such courtesy eliminates the inevitable outrage of the anti-prick crusade.

ZenPsycho 14y ago
Yes, because nobody can calculate in advance the thousands of ways any particular utterance might be interpreted by someone. It's rather neurotic to try, and much easier to just say what you mean, and accept that haters gonna hate.
- xaa 14y ago
  I don't see that calling people "morons" or their work "garbage" as being that ambiguous.
  - ZenPsycho 14y ago
    exactly
  - 1SaltwaterC 14y ago
    There's a lot of ambiguity in your comment alone by taking things out of their context. "Git comes with a nice pull-request generation module, but github instead decided to replace it with their own totally inferior version. As a result, I consider github useless for these kinds of things. It's fine for hosting, but the pull requests and the online commit editing, are just pure garbage." If you think github people can school Linus at git usage, you're being delusional. There's a reason for that. The "moron" thing was targeted at a troll that deleted his comments. The "moron" comment starts with "Btw, Joseph". Now comes the 1000 points question: where's this Joseph fella in that thread? I've seen the original discussion before the troll deleted his comments. Did you?
    - xaa 14y ago
      If these were isolated incidents, I'd agree with you. We should give Linus the benefit of the doubt because of his substantial contributions to OSS. Unfortunately, this behavior is very well established. To take a few random examples of Linus calling people morons (and mentally diseased, etc) before this: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-misc-discuss/2007-06/msg00084.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-misc-discuss/2007-06/m... https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/1vyfmNCYpi5 https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/1vyfmNCY... http://yarchive.net/comp/linux/hibernation.html http://yarchive.net/comp/linux/hibernation.html https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/1/12/13 https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/1/12/13 The point at issue here is not whether Linus is right. Of course he's probably right -- he's Linus. The question is whether he's being civil. In the case you're referring to, pirtlj's comment was also out of line (although ironically apt to this whole discussion). Linus however did not have to respond the way he did.
peterkelly 14y ago
I prefer the first version. Saying something is "pure garbage" gets the point across far more effectively than being polite. I doubt the latter would have resulted in any coverage on tech blogs or got the attention of anyone at github. I don't agree with making direct personal criticisms towards people, but I think it's perfectly acceptable to be very blunt when responding to a bad idea (or patch, or whatever). In my own work I prefer blunt and honest feedback rather than attempts to avoid hurting my emotions. Of course it's always better if that criticism is combined with a constructive suggestions on how to fix the problem.
- primatology 14y ago
  But Github pull requests are not pure garbage. They work very, very well for plenty of other open source projects. To call them "pure garbage" is clear exaggeration. Honesty and courtesy are not mutually exclusive. "Github pull requests simply do not work for a project the size of the kernel" is terse, blunt, and still polite.
  - peterkelly 14y ago
    > To call them "pure garbage" is clear exaggeration. If that's true then fair enough, and I think your version of the comment is a nice middle ground. I've never actually used github myself, and was only commenting on his tone of voice. If something is truly pure garbage, I think it should be said so, but I guess that's not the case here.

ZenPsycho 14y ago

I don't believe it is possible to get into a hub position without being a prick, because all else being equal, you will always get beaten by someone who /is/ willing to be a prick.

roguecoder 14y ago
Unless other people consciously choose not to reward pricks. Natural selection is driven by both the environment and other members of the species. In a field of tit-for-tat always-defect players no longer win.
- ZenPsycho 14y ago
  I don't think it's a matter of people rewarding the pricks for being pricks. I think that there are certain boundaries that "pricks" are willing to cross that "nice guys" are not willing to cross. Crossing the boundaries may not be nice, or ethical, or popular, but it could make the difference between leading an organisation full of talented people, or rewarding programmers in the team that actually /sap the productivity of others/ and letting them do that, simply because you don't want to be a prick to them.

tytso 14y ago

In order to be the leader of a successful project, there are two key skills that you need to have: (a) you need to set very high standards for you and your development team, (b) you need to be able to rally talented developers to want to work with you and your team. How you treat the less-talented people is not terribly important (at least not in terms of how it effects the success or failure of your project in a direct fashion); and if you are someone who has very high standards, and someone who does not have very high standards but which insists on wanting to "help", it's not surprising if you will end up giving them a short, even brusque answer. Dealing with incompetent people who pester you with github pull requests with crap code or crap commit descriptions is an interesting problem. It's not like a startup, where you can fire them, or put them through a very careful interview screening process and refusing to hire the less talented. So combine this tendency towards perfectionism, and interactions with someone who is more persistent than competent. What do you think will happen? So in answer to your question: Can you get into the hub position while being a prick to talented developers? No, of course not. Do you have to be equally nice and perhaps have to show even more patience to the idiots? No, of course not. And if taking the time to try to educate every single idiot which crosses your path and wants to "help", means that you don't have enough time to push your project ahead, ultimately that can end up hurting the success of your project.

ericflo 14y ago
People are not split into two buckets of talented and untalented. People learn, grow, get better (and worse) over time, and have emotions. That github pull request with crap code that "pestered" you could come from someone who turns out to be extremely talented in a year or two.
- dws 14y ago
  And a smack upside the head now could be what propels them to up their game.
  - primatology 14y ago
    Friendly encouragement is a far better motivator. Psychologists have demonstrated that positive reinforcement causes lasting, long-term change, while negative reinforcement only impels temporary change.

wam 14y ago

I'd say Larry Wall has done a pretty good job in his "Benevolent Dictator of Perl" role. I also appreciate how near this piece comes to channeling Philip Seymour Hoffman's rebuttal to Robin Williams in "Patch Adams." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNN6FI1Gcr8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNN6FI1Gcr8

follower 14y ago

> Can you get into the hub position without being a prick? The two easiest examples to provide are probably Guido van Rossum of Python and Larry Wall of Perl.