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Raising HIV against prostitution is like bringing up animal cruelty for veganism: it's not really the most important of many overlapping concerns surrounding th

Raising HIV against prostitution is like bringing up animal cruelty for veganism: it's not really the most important of many overlapping concerns surrounding the issue. Anti-prostitution and anti-abortion laws in the US exist because evangelical Christian white supremacists are able to tell heathens what they can't do with their bodies and pass laws to force their views on other people. These come with the burdens of jail time in the case of prostitution or losing the ability to reproduce or one's life in the case of eliminating the possibility of emergency abortions. Most of America: "The Bible says..."

WorkerBee28474 3y ago
> evangelical Christian white supremacists Ah yes, the ol' reliable 'everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi' approach
- yareal 3y ago
  I think they described the situation fairly? The folks who legislate against sex work tend to tick most of those boxes.
  - hi-v-rocknroll 3y ago
    To be fair, there is real shade to throw at traditional neoliberal uppercase Democrats of the 90's-10's too: copying features of conservatism but then putting off most of the country with bicoastal elitism. The Clintons and Reagans were both out of touch and announced policy on issues without much community engagement. Sex work is legal and more-or-less regulated in most of the UK and Europe even where Le Pen-flavor nationalism is ascending in prevalence. The US has a special kind of polarized infighting and much more variance in rights and restrictions that the rest of the world. For example, if I were to say "I'm pro conceal carry guns for people who continue to show demonstrably sane and stable residents." this wouldn't fly in most of Europe or Australia, regardless of right or left party across the way except for perhaps the fringe far-right. That is to say: norms in America differ significantly from the rest of the world in sometimes disquieting ways to outsiders, due to enduring historical roots and political interests. Perhaps a compromise to placate the majority of Americans would be: "don't touch the right to bear arms in exchange for bodily autonomy and healthcare." The 1995 Oklahoma City bombing didn't happen in a vacuum. It was 100% homegrown terrorism that thrived and came to pass in a culture of government conspiracy theories, Waco, white nationalism, and failure to care for and reintegrate Gulf War vets. Chris Hedges wrote a book on the topic: American Fascists (2008). Excluding Jan 6th as different kind of event, that there hasn't been another domestic terrorism mass casualty event due to diligent work by law enforcement combined with a tinge of dumb luck.
    - yareal 3y ago
      I'd argue plenty of democrats fit that description as well. > Perhaps a compromise to placate the majority of Americans would be: "don't touch the right to bear arms in exchange for bodily autonomy and healthcare." Most of the leftists I know are extremely strong opponents to gun control. Marx was pretty clear on the importance of an armed working class, and leftists tend to take that to heart ime.
    - gadders 3y ago
      >>The 1995 Oklahoma City bombing didn't happen in a vacuum. It was 100% homegrown terrorism that thrived and came to pass in a culture of government conspiracy theories, Waco, white nationalism, and failure to care for and reintegrate Gulf War vets. Chris Hedges wrote a book on the topic: American Fascists (2008). Excluding Jan 6th as different kind of event, that there hasn't been another domestic terrorism mass casualty event due to diligent work by law enforcement combined with a tinge of dumb luck. There was also Ruby Ridge, which was absolutely disgusting policing. And most of the "domestic terrorism" today involves FBI agents trying to bait people into committing offences such as in the Whitmer "kidnapping".
  - Auracle 3y ago
    White supremacists? Really? And something tells me Muslims, practicing Jews, etc. aren’t a fan of prostitution either. So really you could just say “religious people,” and it’d be far more accurate.
    - yareal 3y ago
      Do we have many conservative Muslim or Jewish legislators? I would figure they tend to come from more progressive districts...
      - hi-v-rocknroll 3y ago
        Don't be surprised. I'm sure there is at least one Jainist Republican American. Religion and conservatism seem to be correlated positively with one another. No particular group or identity membership mandates membership in another. And I'm sure there are a zillion libertarian agnostics and atheists who follow some styles of the broad tent of conservatism without the authoritarian forcefulness of others who want to limit the rights of others, on both sides of the political spectrum. It's my unpopular and minority opinion that the world would be better without some or most religions but would be better off with the trappings of what churches provide: community, friend networks, singing together, reflecting on philosophy, and mutual aid. Although, I'm absolutely sure the world would be better without the cult of Scientology. https://www.scientology-austin.org/about-us/grand-opening.html https://www.scientology-austin.org/about-us/grand-opening.ht...
        yareal 3y ago
        The people who make the laws about prostitution are the set of people under discussion. Not Americans at large.
  - belorn 3y ago
    From a European perspective, it is a bit interesting to see it being described like that. Anti-prostitution has become a rather large far-left political priority, with the right and far-right taking opposition. In the far-left perspective, prostitution represent a form of slavery. For similar reasons, anti-pornography laws are generally proposed from the left side of the political spectrum, and then naturally opposed by the right. It should be added that while typical evangelical Christian voters are sought by right-leaning political parties, voters of the second largest faith is generally sought by left-leaning political parties. This is currently very noticeable given the a specific conflict in the world. Religious voters and political parties that want to cater to those voters are no longer limited to left or right.
  - gadders 3y ago
    There is a feminist case against prostitution as well. EG https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/june-2022/women-should-not-be-for-sale/ https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/june-2022/women-should-not-be...
    - yareal 3y ago
      Certainly. There's a feminist case for it as well. Interestingly, that article opens with a left/right framing.
iraqmtpizza 3y ago
'laws against child murder are because of white supremacists and their barbarous religion'
huytersd 3y ago
If I’m not mistaken, animal cruelty is the number one reason for vegans being vegans. What exactly are you saying?
- hi-v-rocknroll 3y ago
  While it should be a top reason, it's an extremely unpersuasive reason in the real world because people want their bacon burgers so long as they don't have to see what happens in a slaughterhouse or pay for the total cost of externalities of their consumption lifestyle choices. There are much more pressing, self-interested reasons to advocate veganism: 1. Meat ag and bushmeat lead to pandemics: bovine tuberculosis, "Spanish" flu, Nipah, SARS, H7N7, H1N1, MERS, COVID. There are others. 2. Meat ag abuses the same antibiotics humans take (but manufactured in the veterinary supply chain) for purely economic reasons (mostly, to make animals grow faster) leading to the evolution of antibiotic resistant microbes and making antibiotic medications in humans less effective. 3. Climate change. It contributes 1/6 of all human GHG activity. 4. Air, soil, and water pollution are the result of mega grain farms, large pig farms, and CAFOs. 5. It's resource intensive and drives up the cost of all food by shunting more water, diesel fuel, arable land, etc. to less output. 6. Along with palm kernel oil, it's a leading driver of old growth deforestation. 7. And it hurts both the cute and the ugly critters.
  - Marsymars 3y ago
    > While it should be a top reason, it's an extremely unpersuasive reason in the real world Well it’s conditionally persuasive depending on the animal and people’s priors. Dogs vs horses vs pigs, etc. Agreed on all your points though.
    - hi-v-rocknroll 3y ago
      Yeah. Sigh. I'm realistic because the "meat is murder" with gross-out signage of slaughterhouse porn billboard-sign-on-cars approach hasn't really taken off. In other news, Moolec is developing GMO "Piggy Sooy" to taste like pork by inserting pork genes into beans. (I'm wondering: will it be Halal or Kosher?) Impossible Foods' "beef" relies on heme from GMO yeast, while Moolec plans to have GMO "beef" too.

WorkerBee28474 3y ago

> evangelical Christian white supremacists Ah yes, the ol' reliable 'everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi' approach

yareal 3y ago
I think they described the situation fairly? The folks who legislate against sex work tend to tick most of those boxes.
- hi-v-rocknroll 3y ago
  To be fair, there is real shade to throw at traditional neoliberal uppercase Democrats of the 90's-10's too: copying features of conservatism but then putting off most of the country with bicoastal elitism. The Clintons and Reagans were both out of touch and announced policy on issues without much community engagement. Sex work is legal and more-or-less regulated in most of the UK and Europe even where Le Pen-flavor nationalism is ascending in prevalence. The US has a special kind of polarized infighting and much more variance in rights and restrictions that the rest of the world. For example, if I were to say "I'm pro conceal carry guns for people who continue to show demonstrably sane and stable residents." this wouldn't fly in most of Europe or Australia, regardless of right or left party across the way except for perhaps the fringe far-right. That is to say: norms in America differ significantly from the rest of the world in sometimes disquieting ways to outsiders, due to enduring historical roots and political interests. Perhaps a compromise to placate the majority of Americans would be: "don't touch the right to bear arms in exchange for bodily autonomy and healthcare." The 1995 Oklahoma City bombing didn't happen in a vacuum. It was 100% homegrown terrorism that thrived and came to pass in a culture of government conspiracy theories, Waco, white nationalism, and failure to care for and reintegrate Gulf War vets. Chris Hedges wrote a book on the topic: American Fascists (2008). Excluding Jan 6th as different kind of event, that there hasn't been another domestic terrorism mass casualty event due to diligent work by law enforcement combined with a tinge of dumb luck.
  - yareal 3y ago
    I'd argue plenty of democrats fit that description as well. > Perhaps a compromise to placate the majority of Americans would be: "don't touch the right to bear arms in exchange for bodily autonomy and healthcare." Most of the leftists I know are extremely strong opponents to gun control. Marx was pretty clear on the importance of an armed working class, and leftists tend to take that to heart ime.
  - gadders 3y ago
    >>The 1995 Oklahoma City bombing didn't happen in a vacuum. It was 100% homegrown terrorism that thrived and came to pass in a culture of government conspiracy theories, Waco, white nationalism, and failure to care for and reintegrate Gulf War vets. Chris Hedges wrote a book on the topic: American Fascists (2008). Excluding Jan 6th as different kind of event, that there hasn't been another domestic terrorism mass casualty event due to diligent work by law enforcement combined with a tinge of dumb luck. There was also Ruby Ridge, which was absolutely disgusting policing. And most of the "domestic terrorism" today involves FBI agents trying to bait people into committing offences such as in the Whitmer "kidnapping".
- Auracle 3y ago
  White supremacists? Really? And something tells me Muslims, practicing Jews, etc. aren’t a fan of prostitution either. So really you could just say “religious people,” and it’d be far more accurate.
  - yareal 3y ago
    Do we have many conservative Muslim or Jewish legislators? I would figure they tend to come from more progressive districts...
    - hi-v-rocknroll 3y ago
      Don't be surprised. I'm sure there is at least one Jainist Republican American. Religion and conservatism seem to be correlated positively with one another. No particular group or identity membership mandates membership in another. And I'm sure there are a zillion libertarian agnostics and atheists who follow some styles of the broad tent of conservatism without the authoritarian forcefulness of others who want to limit the rights of others, on both sides of the political spectrum. It's my unpopular and minority opinion that the world would be better without some or most religions but would be better off with the trappings of what churches provide: community, friend networks, singing together, reflecting on philosophy, and mutual aid. Although, I'm absolutely sure the world would be better without the cult of Scientology. https://www.scientology-austin.org/about-us/grand-opening.html https://www.scientology-austin.org/about-us/grand-opening.ht...
      - yareal 3y ago
        The people who make the laws about prostitution are the set of people under discussion. Not Americans at large.
- belorn 3y ago
  From a European perspective, it is a bit interesting to see it being described like that. Anti-prostitution has become a rather large far-left political priority, with the right and far-right taking opposition. In the far-left perspective, prostitution represent a form of slavery. For similar reasons, anti-pornography laws are generally proposed from the left side of the political spectrum, and then naturally opposed by the right. It should be added that while typical evangelical Christian voters are sought by right-leaning political parties, voters of the second largest faith is generally sought by left-leaning political parties. This is currently very noticeable given the a specific conflict in the world. Religious voters and political parties that want to cater to those voters are no longer limited to left or right.
- gadders 3y ago
  There is a feminist case against prostitution as well. EG https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/june-2022/women-should-not-be-for-sale/ https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/june-2022/women-should-not-be...
  - yareal 3y ago
    Certainly. There's a feminist case for it as well. Interestingly, that article opens with a left/right framing.

iraqmtpizza 3y ago

'laws against child murder are because of white supremacists and their barbarous religion'

huytersd 3y ago

If I’m not mistaken, animal cruelty is the number one reason for vegans being vegans. What exactly are you saying?

hi-v-rocknroll 3y ago
While it should be a top reason, it's an extremely unpersuasive reason in the real world because people want their bacon burgers so long as they don't have to see what happens in a slaughterhouse or pay for the total cost of externalities of their consumption lifestyle choices. There are much more pressing, self-interested reasons to advocate veganism: 1. Meat ag and bushmeat lead to pandemics: bovine tuberculosis, "Spanish" flu, Nipah, SARS, H7N7, H1N1, MERS, COVID. There are others. 2. Meat ag abuses the same antibiotics humans take (but manufactured in the veterinary supply chain) for purely economic reasons (mostly, to make animals grow faster) leading to the evolution of antibiotic resistant microbes and making antibiotic medications in humans less effective. 3. Climate change. It contributes 1/6 of all human GHG activity. 4. Air, soil, and water pollution are the result of mega grain farms, large pig farms, and CAFOs. 5. It's resource intensive and drives up the cost of all food by shunting more water, diesel fuel, arable land, etc. to less output. 6. Along with palm kernel oil, it's a leading driver of old growth deforestation. 7. And it hurts both the cute and the ugly critters.
- Marsymars 3y ago
  > While it should be a top reason, it's an extremely unpersuasive reason in the real world Well it’s conditionally persuasive depending on the animal and people’s priors. Dogs vs horses vs pigs, etc. Agreed on all your points though.
  - hi-v-rocknroll 3y ago
    Yeah. Sigh. I'm realistic because the "meat is murder" with gross-out signage of slaughterhouse porn billboard-sign-on-cars approach hasn't really taken off. In other news, Moolec is developing GMO "Piggy Sooy" to taste like pork by inserting pork genes into beans. (I'm wondering: will it be Halal or Kosher?) Impossible Foods' "beef" relies on heme from GMO yeast, while Moolec plans to have GMO "beef" too.