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>Should OSS solve that "problem"? If you don't want a cyberpunk-like dystopia of megacorps controlling everything, yes. This is not just affecting the VC-funde

>Should OSS solve that "problem"? If you don't want a cyberpunk-like dystopia of megacorps controlling everything, yes. This is not just affecting the VC-funded startups' profitability but it also affects ordinary software developers' lifestyle businesses too. Sure, the core principles of OSS don't require that you'd be able to earn money from your work, but then perhaps it is OSS which is not fit for purpose, not the desire to earn money from creating software. >if you want to discourage Amazon from using your product, use AGPL. The AGPL is still not restrictive enough because you can resell the software without contributing anything back if you don't modify it. Stuff like the SSPL or the Commons Clause are much better to prevent that kind of exploitation. >FL/OSS will be fine between evening/weekend hackers (xz), small-to-medium companies/consultancies (Rails), and our neo-feudal tech overlords (React). I find the xz example especially funny because that shows how it is very much not fine. Single developer, burnt out, not getting paid a penny for his thankless work, a bunch of state-sponsored actors pressure him to hand his project over -> backdoor injected. If Lasse Collin could get support for his project, this almost certainly would not have happened. https://xkcd.com/2347/ https://xkcd.com/2347/ is very relevant here.

prepend 2y ago
> The AGPL is still not restrictive enough because you can resell the software without contributing anything back if you don't modify it Why would you want to restrict reselling? If you want free software then you’re going to have reselling. If you don’t want reselling, then don’t make your software free/open source. I’m not sure why people are getting mixed up. Anyone can make proprietary software and restrict all they want. There’s tons of commercial software. But it doesn’t have the features of free/open source.
- Pannoniae 2y ago
  >Why would you want to restrict reselling? Depends on what your philosophy is. You believe in the software commons and the free sharing of software? You would want software to remain as a public good so no one can profit from it exclusively. Are you a business who made some software? You don't want others to resell it because it's your work, you made it and you don't want others to freeload. >If you don’t want reselling, then don’t make your software free/open source. Sure, and the consequences of this will be much more all-rights-reserved proprietary software. A huge loss to users and developers. >But it doesn’t have the features of free/open source. Yes it does. Just because it doesn't conform to all tenets of the OSI definition, many useful things are still kept. The most obvious is the right to view the source code - which is highly liberating in an age where many vendors lock their systems down or try to offer everything as a SaaS where you don't even see the binaries. You usually also have the right to modify the software under most of these licences - you are the user but you find a bug in the software, you don't need to wait for the vendor to fix it, you can fix it and share your modifications to other users (either paid or not). You can also have the right to contribute changes if contributions are allowed, which is also a positive for everyone. There are many freedoms which can be granted without necessarily going for a maximalist open-source approach but still preserving the right to exploit your own work and prevent others from exploiting it.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - sangnoir 2y ago
    > Depends on what your philosophy is. You believe in the software commons and the free sharing of software? You would want software to remain as a public good so no one can profit from it exclusively. > Are you a business who made some software? You don't want others to resell it because it's your work, you made it and you don't want others to freeload. I cant help but notice that you assume everyone uses money as a measure of desirable/undesirable outcomes. Whenever I publish a library/project with a GPL license (my preferred license), it's so that others can use it. I have a well paying job that's enabled in part by others sharing their work[1], so I let the "freeloaders" have at it - I too am one, after all. At the time I release the software, my problem is adequately solved: I already did the work , maybe someone else may benefit. Creating/sharing value with others is the point - I don't mind if someone else sells it : if they abide by the license, that means I can sell something identical for half of whatever they sold it for if I suddenly felt competitive. 1. I'm amazed that I can use Linux, git, hypervisors, orchestrators, various computers and interpreter, libraries, ops tools and more all for free,and with the ability to pry them open and make any changes I want! How frigging cool is that?! I'm compelled to pay it forward in any way I can.
    - Pannoniae 2y ago
      If money is not important, what's the harm in making it available as open source, but with a non-commercial clause?
      - sangnoir 2y ago
        Because I don't mind people using my software commercially if they are respecting the license. I wouldn't want to be charged for all my commercial usage of Linux, Git, Postgres, zsh, the rust toolchain, etc. I believe if everyone in our industry tried to capture all/most of of the economic value of their work, we'd all be poorer for it, metaphorically and literally since a huge part of high SDE salaries is due to high productivity enabled by the open source ecosystem. We are all freeloaders, to varying degrees. Without FL/OSS, most of these source-available companies would never have gotten off the ground.
raxxorraxor 2y ago
Your solution seems to just incorporate OSS and at some point it just isn't OSS anymore. The problem was not the developer of xz, it is the people that build upon it without reflection. Although to be fair, almost every developer has a dependency like that somewhere. I find it funny that people call to support the developer. That is true, but the scam was exactly about how the dev was pressured to hire more maintainers. The lesson here should be that if third party is nagging you about your open source project, you just hint them on the "no warranty" part. Everything else is their problem. I wish the developer would swim in money. He did more constructive work than many, many very rich people. Problem still is that there is no entity that could be trusted to pay him. If that would be corporation, the pressure would be even higher. Because then you are essentially a freelancing developer with a corporate contract. You lose freedom and independence, something many OSS developers specifically do not want.

prepend 2y ago

> The AGPL is still not restrictive enough because you can resell the software without contributing anything back if you don't modify it Why would you want to restrict reselling? If you want free software then you’re going to have reselling. If you don’t want reselling, then don’t make your software free/open source. I’m not sure why people are getting mixed up. Anyone can make proprietary software and restrict all they want. There’s tons of commercial software. But it doesn’t have the features of free/open source.

Pannoniae 2y ago
>Why would you want to restrict reselling? Depends on what your philosophy is. You believe in the software commons and the free sharing of software? You would want software to remain as a public good so no one can profit from it exclusively. Are you a business who made some software? You don't want others to resell it because it's your work, you made it and you don't want others to freeload. >If you don’t want reselling, then don’t make your software free/open source. Sure, and the consequences of this will be much more all-rights-reserved proprietary software. A huge loss to users and developers. >But it doesn’t have the features of free/open source. Yes it does. Just because it doesn't conform to all tenets of the OSI definition, many useful things are still kept. The most obvious is the right to view the source code - which is highly liberating in an age where many vendors lock their systems down or try to offer everything as a SaaS where you don't even see the binaries. You usually also have the right to modify the software under most of these licences - you are the user but you find a bug in the software, you don't need to wait for the vendor to fix it, you can fix it and share your modifications to other users (either paid or not). You can also have the right to contribute changes if contributions are allowed, which is also a positive for everyone. There are many freedoms which can be granted without necessarily going for a maximalist open-source approach but still preserving the right to exploit your own work and prevent others from exploiting it.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- sangnoir 2y ago
  > Depends on what your philosophy is. You believe in the software commons and the free sharing of software? You would want software to remain as a public good so no one can profit from it exclusively. > Are you a business who made some software? You don't want others to resell it because it's your work, you made it and you don't want others to freeload. I cant help but notice that you assume everyone uses money as a measure of desirable/undesirable outcomes. Whenever I publish a library/project with a GPL license (my preferred license), it's so that others can use it. I have a well paying job that's enabled in part by others sharing their work[1], so I let the "freeloaders" have at it - I too am one, after all. At the time I release the software, my problem is adequately solved: I already did the work , maybe someone else may benefit. Creating/sharing value with others is the point - I don't mind if someone else sells it : if they abide by the license, that means I can sell something identical for half of whatever they sold it for if I suddenly felt competitive. 1. I'm amazed that I can use Linux, git, hypervisors, orchestrators, various computers and interpreter, libraries, ops tools and more all for free,and with the ability to pry them open and make any changes I want! How frigging cool is that?! I'm compelled to pay it forward in any way I can.
  - Pannoniae 2y ago
    If money is not important, what's the harm in making it available as open source, but with a non-commercial clause?
    - sangnoir 2y ago
      Because I don't mind people using my software commercially if they are respecting the license. I wouldn't want to be charged for all my commercial usage of Linux, Git, Postgres, zsh, the rust toolchain, etc. I believe if everyone in our industry tried to capture all/most of of the economic value of their work, we'd all be poorer for it, metaphorically and literally since a huge part of high SDE salaries is due to high productivity enabled by the open source ecosystem. We are all freeloaders, to varying degrees. Without FL/OSS, most of these source-available companies would never have gotten off the ground.

raxxorraxor 2y ago

Your solution seems to just incorporate OSS and at some point it just isn't OSS anymore. The problem was not the developer of xz, it is the people that build upon it without reflection. Although to be fair, almost every developer has a dependency like that somewhere. I find it funny that people call to support the developer. That is true, but the scam was exactly about how the dev was pressured to hire more maintainers. The lesson here should be that if third party is nagging you about your open source project, you just hint them on the "no warranty" part. Everything else is their problem. I wish the developer would swim in money. He did more constructive work than many, many very rich people. Problem still is that there is no entity that could be trusted to pay him. If that would be corporation, the pressure would be even higher. Because then you are essentially a freelancing developer with a corporate contract. You lose freedom and independence, something many OSS developers specifically do not want.