> the do not hide nastiness They do, though. Some of the problems Codd speaks of are not made possible in the high level language. Depends on implementation, o

> the do not hide nastiness They do, though. Some of the problems Codd speaks of are not made possible in the high level language. Depends on implementation, of course, but as a rule. I mean, think about it: If you were building an ORM, why would you make the very same design mistakes? That's not to say you won't make all kinds of your own design mistakes (there is no ORM that isn't full of design mistakes), but I mean why make the design mistakes that are already well studied and you know to avoid?