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I'm hearing that dogfighting is a thing of the past because weapons systems operate at large distances anymore. Drones should do (at least?) three things well:

I'm hearing that dogfighting is a thing of the past because weapons systems operate at large distances anymore. Drones should do (at least?) three things well: dog fight, since they can make decisions in an instant and tolerate higher g-forces than a human can; prevent a human death if they get shot down; and be smaller/lighter/carry more/have greater range because they're not designed around carrying a pilot. Any ideas on what the driving factors are for this?

whamlastxmas 3y ago
I think the amount of space and weight a human and their required hardware need is pretty low on a jet. However the aerodynamics probably benefit a lot from not needing a high up bulbous cockpit with really good visibility
jaysonelliot 3y ago
One important distinction, though - lethal drones should not be making decisions.
- michaelt 3y ago
  Arguably you're right. But the makers of lethal autonomous drones would probably claim their product is really more like a cruise missile or fire-and-forget missile, where there's only a human in the loop at the moment of launch and things are autonomous thereafter.
- nyolfen 3y ago
  this consensus will last until the first actor defects
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    This consensus doesn't exist. Computers have been designating targets and commanding attacks since at least the 60s. The Phalanx CIWS for example is designed to be run in fully automatic mode, choosing which radar contacts to engage and when to open fire on them. There's even already been friendly fire incidents from the system. Modern anti-ship missiles, torpedos, and BVR missiles also are designed with the ability to "go to this point in space and then find yourself a target and kill it" We automated target selection and tasking in warships shortly after the second world war, to combat the fact that we expected the soviets to send 200 missiles at a task force at once, and didn't think humans could manage that kind of task load. If you turn the right keys in an Arleigh Burke, every single human can leave the command part of the ship and it will still shoot planes out of the sky, all automated.
- daedrdev 3y ago
  Say some human decides have the drone attack a target, and the drone takes care of the entire fight itself
ethbr1 3y ago
Dog fighting requires much more situational awareness from a sensor perspective. One reason the recent VISTA demonstration had the adversary feed its own position via data link to the autonomously flown plane. Magazine depth and endurance/range seem to be the initial goals.
Wohlf 3y ago
Unmanned fighters are a force multiplier, a single F-35 can coordinate its own squadron of drones (loyal wingman program). More ordnance, more coverage, more capabilities, more flexiblility, and less risk for lower relative costs.
Balgair 3y ago
I hate to be the downer here, but we said the exact same thing with the F4. And then the F4 got hosed over Vietnam. So we went back to having a gun onboard. Things are appreciably different this time, yes. But how different, and how that will shake out in the fog of war, the friction [0], is another thing to be seen. All I guess I'm saying is that caution is warranted before we declare the dog fight dead, again. [0] Clausewitz, drink!
- hollerith 3y ago
  The VTOL and the Navy versions of the F-35 lack a gun.

whamlastxmas 3y ago

I think the amount of space and weight a human and their required hardware need is pretty low on a jet. However the aerodynamics probably benefit a lot from not needing a high up bulbous cockpit with really good visibility

jaysonelliot 3y ago

One important distinction, though - lethal drones should not be making decisions.

michaelt 3y ago
Arguably you're right. But the makers of lethal autonomous drones would probably claim their product is really more like a cruise missile or fire-and-forget missile, where there's only a human in the loop at the moment of launch and things are autonomous thereafter.
nyolfen 3y ago
this consensus will last until the first actor defects
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  This consensus doesn't exist. Computers have been designating targets and commanding attacks since at least the 60s. The Phalanx CIWS for example is designed to be run in fully automatic mode, choosing which radar contacts to engage and when to open fire on them. There's even already been friendly fire incidents from the system. Modern anti-ship missiles, torpedos, and BVR missiles also are designed with the ability to "go to this point in space and then find yourself a target and kill it" We automated target selection and tasking in warships shortly after the second world war, to combat the fact that we expected the soviets to send 200 missiles at a task force at once, and didn't think humans could manage that kind of task load. If you turn the right keys in an Arleigh Burke, every single human can leave the command part of the ship and it will still shoot planes out of the sky, all automated.
daedrdev 3y ago
Say some human decides have the drone attack a target, and the drone takes care of the entire fight itself

ethbr1 3y ago

Dog fighting requires much more situational awareness from a sensor perspective. One reason the recent VISTA demonstration had the adversary feed its own position via data link to the autonomously flown plane. Magazine depth and endurance/range seem to be the initial goals.

Wohlf 3y ago

Unmanned fighters are a force multiplier, a single F-35 can coordinate its own squadron of drones (loyal wingman program). More ordnance, more coverage, more capabilities, more flexiblility, and less risk for lower relative costs.

Balgair 3y ago

I hate to be the downer here, but we said the exact same thing with the F4. And then the F4 got hosed over Vietnam. So we went back to having a gun onboard. Things are appreciably different this time, yes. But how different, and how that will shake out in the fog of war, the friction [0], is another thing to be seen. All I guess I'm saying is that caution is warranted before we declare the dog fight dead, again. [0] Clausewitz, drink!

hollerith 3y ago
The VTOL and the Navy versions of the F-35 lack a gun.