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One of the ideas informing representative democracy is that those wielding power stand for election. This means that if those making public decisions pursue fo

One of the ideas informing representative democracy is that those wielding power stand for election. This means that if those making public decisions pursue folly, they pay a price at election time. Irrespective of whether this specific idea is a wise one, the notion of un-elected bureaucrats making policy with broad effect should terrify us. Also worrisome is the abdication of proper legislative power by Congress.

kibwen 3y ago
This is nonsense. Congress hasn't abdicated anything, they've delegated it, and they retain the power to overrule the EPA, which means that voters have the power to elect representatives to do just that if the EPA made a bad ruling. And in this particular case, this isn't even remotely a bad ruling. The inability for markets to properly price in their negative externalities is the reason for our current looming crisis, and making up for the failures of markets by properly imposing those externalities is one of the most important roles of government.
- smitty1e 3y ago
  > Congress hasn't abdicated anything, they've delegated it, and they retain the power to overrule the EPA Console yourself with this theoretical point, by all means.
- ImJamal 3y ago
  >Congress hasn't abdicated anything, they've delegated it, and they retain the power to overrule the EPA Maybe the congress should do this with everything. The president can just make any rule he wants. Or maybe congress should just do their job instead of just delegating away all of their responsibility.
  - smitty1e 3y ago
    My point is that the power has oozed into Article II over the last century, leaving facades in place for Articles I and III. High time for an Article V re-write.
cbrozefsky 3y ago
Perhaps you should learn more about the US Constitution, the separation of powers, and the role of the executive branch and it's ability to make ruling like this. Doing so before you bring up an absurd talking point that is always trotted out when someone is held to account by a regulatory agency to pay for the damages they doing to their neighbors.
- smitty1e 3y ago
  > absurd talking point You can call the reality of the situation "absurd" all day, but you'll not be driving much improvement.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
matthewdgreen 3y ago
If Congress wants to override this rule, they can hold a vote and do it tomorrow. Don’t confuse Congress’s disinterest in doing something for their inability to do it.
- smitty1e 3y ago
  > If Congress wants to override this rule, they can hold a vote and do it tomorrow. As elsewhere in the thread, I find this point mostly theoretical. You could say with an equally straight face that Congress could balance the budget any old time it wants to. You could also point to some quantum mechanical statistical possibility of a fored bullet passing through its target. There will be no improvement in the collapsed political situation before us until we get past discussing hypotheticals and set about reform.
  - matthewdgreen 3y ago
    Congress has certain powers; nobody seriously disagrees about this. Congress can use those powers if it wants to: again, nobody here disagrees about this. I think everyone here would also agree that Congress is not very fast or efficient when it comes to using its powers to pass legislation. That’s unfortunate but I guess part of the basic structure of the institution. The only weird thing going on here is that one person in the conversation has pointed all these facts out, but then for some reason thinks it would be awesome to force Congress to micromanage the entire government through legislation rather than explicitly delegating the detailed enforcement to other branches. That’s the part I don’t get. If you’re going to push for Congress to run every element of our vast Federal government, stop providing devastating arguments that undermine your case.
    - smitty1e 3y ago
      You have stated things that are quite true but which ignore the gravity of the actual federal bureaucracy. The debt, for one example, is so large that it is just a Really Big Number. Do you think that the U.S. Government accidentally created perpetual motion with the Constitution, and that none of the real-world effects outside of those ~4k words matter?

kibwen 3y ago

This is nonsense. Congress hasn't abdicated anything, they've delegated it, and they retain the power to overrule the EPA, which means that voters have the power to elect representatives to do just that if the EPA made a bad ruling. And in this particular case, this isn't even remotely a bad ruling. The inability for markets to properly price in their negative externalities is the reason for our current looming crisis, and making up for the failures of markets by properly imposing those externalities is one of the most important roles of government.

smitty1e 3y ago
> Congress hasn't abdicated anything, they've delegated it, and they retain the power to overrule the EPA Console yourself with this theoretical point, by all means.
ImJamal 3y ago
>Congress hasn't abdicated anything, they've delegated it, and they retain the power to overrule the EPA Maybe the congress should do this with everything. The president can just make any rule he wants. Or maybe congress should just do their job instead of just delegating away all of their responsibility.
- smitty1e 3y ago
  My point is that the power has oozed into Article II over the last century, leaving facades in place for Articles I and III. High time for an Article V re-write.

cbrozefsky 3y ago

Perhaps you should learn more about the US Constitution, the separation of powers, and the role of the executive branch and it's ability to make ruling like this. Doing so before you bring up an absurd talking point that is always trotted out when someone is held to account by a regulatory agency to pay for the damages they doing to their neighbors.

smitty1e 3y ago
> absurd talking point You can call the reality of the situation "absurd" all day, but you'll not be driving much improvement.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

matthewdgreen 3y ago

If Congress wants to override this rule, they can hold a vote and do it tomorrow. Don’t confuse Congress’s disinterest in doing something for their inability to do it.

smitty1e 3y ago
> If Congress wants to override this rule, they can hold a vote and do it tomorrow. As elsewhere in the thread, I find this point mostly theoretical. You could say with an equally straight face that Congress could balance the budget any old time it wants to. You could also point to some quantum mechanical statistical possibility of a fored bullet passing through its target. There will be no improvement in the collapsed political situation before us until we get past discussing hypotheticals and set about reform.
- matthewdgreen 3y ago
  Congress has certain powers; nobody seriously disagrees about this. Congress can use those powers if it wants to: again, nobody here disagrees about this. I think everyone here would also agree that Congress is not very fast or efficient when it comes to using its powers to pass legislation. That’s unfortunate but I guess part of the basic structure of the institution. The only weird thing going on here is that one person in the conversation has pointed all these facts out, but then for some reason thinks it would be awesome to force Congress to micromanage the entire government through legislation rather than explicitly delegating the detailed enforcement to other branches. That’s the part I don’t get. If you’re going to push for Congress to run every element of our vast Federal government, stop providing devastating arguments that undermine your case.
  - smitty1e 3y ago
    You have stated things that are quite true but which ignore the gravity of the actual federal bureaucracy. The debt, for one example, is so large that it is just a Really Big Number. Do you think that the U.S. Government accidentally created perpetual motion with the Constitution, and that none of the real-world effects outside of those ~4k words matter?