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The European legislation is also something of a joke. Most of the time the airlines just ignore them unless you sue. I recently won a case against American Ai

by wheels 2y ago

The European legislation is also something of a joke. Most of the time the airlines just ignore them unless you sue. I recently won a case against American Airlines for a canceled flight, but it took two years, and lawyers ate half of the money. Just a couple weeks ago KLM canceled my flight and bumped me to Delta, who also canceled my flight, but then washed themselves of liability because Delta isn't an EU carrier (and the flight originated outside of the EU).

terinjokes 2y ago
Why would you file against Delta if you booked with KLM?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- wheels 2y ago
  Because the law says that you have to pursue the claim with the flight operator.
tossandthrow 2y ago
yes, so you are pointing out some very fundamental properties of a justice state. no law will ever fix this. obviously you need to have things tried. However, you can pay with a credit card and document the blatant rule breaking to them. They will refund you and bear legal risks. and unless you are in the wrong, the airline won't do. more about it. I had a case with SAS some years ago, where mastercard simply refunded me. that was it.
- wil421 2y ago
  In the US many merchants will refuse to do business with you again if you do a charge back. Not sure what would happened if you were blackballed and used a different credit card.
  - tossandthrow 2y ago
    They can also refuse to do business with you if you sue them? What is the point? By all means, suppress yourself to a regime of ultra large companies, if that makes you feel more safe – in this case you are merely paying protection money and the system you support is just like the mafia. In the EU they do take another route: They try to make grounds for a more competitive environment such that anti-consumer behaviour does not make sense. That is also why you don't see ultra large tech companies in the EU. And for consumer, that is a good thing, because it keeps companies in check. I can furthermore say that I indeed has flown with this airline since.
    - hnfong 2y ago
      > That is also why you don't see ultra large tech companies in the EU. And for consumer, that is a good thing, because it keeps companies in check. Tech is different because the advantage of scale is huge. And Europeans use Facebook, iPhones, Google, just like everyone else so it's not like the competitive environment makes a difference in tech...
- wheels 2y ago
  I did do a chargeback, because after 2 months of contacting the booking agent requesting a refund, I got nothing. But the flight was canceled with less than 24 hours notice, so there were also statutory damages of €600/person (EU law), which in my case only covered the cost of my ongoing flight (booked separately, but same airline). It took two years to have the statutory damages rewarded, and after the legal fees didn't even cover the cost of the missed flight. Companies should actually follow the law without having to be sued. Having to sue companies by default to get them to follow the law isn't a fundamental property of the rule of law. There's even a whole industry just created to enforce airline claims, because the companies ignore them with such impunity.
supermatt 2y ago
If your flight starts or ends in the EU then it doesn’t matter if it’s an EU carrier. It is the flight operator (I.e Delta) that is liable.
- wheels 2y ago
  That's not true. Read the rule. If it starts outside of the EU, then it's only applicable if the carrier is an EU carrier: https://www.eccnet.eu/consumer-rights/what-are-my-consumer-rights/travel-and-passenger-rights/air-passenger-rights/flight https://www.eccnet.eu/consumer-rights/what-are-my-consumer-r...
hnfong 2y ago
I have a friend who had to pester Lufthansa for more than six months before she got her refund for a delayed flight. It was kind of amusing how she just went on Lufthansa's social media accounts and kept complaining. The legislation really doesn't work as well as people think it does.

by wheels 2y ago

terinjokes 2y ago

Why would you file against Delta if you booked with KLM?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
wheels 2y ago
Because the law says that you have to pursue the claim with the flight operator.

tossandthrow 2y ago

yes, so you are pointing out some very fundamental properties of a justice state. no law will ever fix this. obviously you need to have things tried. However, you can pay with a credit card and document the blatant rule breaking to them. They will refund you and bear legal risks. and unless you are in the wrong, the airline won't do. more about it. I had a case with SAS some years ago, where mastercard simply refunded me. that was it.

wil421 2y ago
In the US many merchants will refuse to do business with you again if you do a charge back. Not sure what would happened if you were blackballed and used a different credit card.
- tossandthrow 2y ago
  They can also refuse to do business with you if you sue them? What is the point? By all means, suppress yourself to a regime of ultra large companies, if that makes you feel more safe – in this case you are merely paying protection money and the system you support is just like the mafia. In the EU they do take another route: They try to make grounds for a more competitive environment such that anti-consumer behaviour does not make sense. That is also why you don't see ultra large tech companies in the EU. And for consumer, that is a good thing, because it keeps companies in check. I can furthermore say that I indeed has flown with this airline since.
  - hnfong 2y ago
    > That is also why you don't see ultra large tech companies in the EU. And for consumer, that is a good thing, because it keeps companies in check. Tech is different because the advantage of scale is huge. And Europeans use Facebook, iPhones, Google, just like everyone else so it's not like the competitive environment makes a difference in tech...
wheels 2y ago
I did do a chargeback, because after 2 months of contacting the booking agent requesting a refund, I got nothing. But the flight was canceled with less than 24 hours notice, so there were also statutory damages of €600/person (EU law), which in my case only covered the cost of my ongoing flight (booked separately, but same airline). It took two years to have the statutory damages rewarded, and after the legal fees didn't even cover the cost of the missed flight. Companies should actually follow the law without having to be sued. Having to sue companies by default to get them to follow the law isn't a fundamental property of the rule of law. There's even a whole industry just created to enforce airline claims, because the companies ignore them with such impunity.

supermatt 2y ago

If your flight starts or ends in the EU then it doesn’t matter if it’s an EU carrier. It is the flight operator (I.e Delta) that is liable.

wheels 2y ago
That's not true. Read the rule. If it starts outside of the EU, then it's only applicable if the carrier is an EU carrier: https://www.eccnet.eu/consumer-rights/what-are-my-consumer-rights/travel-and-passenger-rights/air-passenger-rights/flight https://www.eccnet.eu/consumer-rights/what-are-my-consumer-r...

hnfong 2y ago

I have a friend who had to pester Lufthansa for more than six months before she got her refund for a delayed flight. It was kind of amusing how she just went on Lufthansa's social media accounts and kept complaining. The legislation really doesn't work as well as people think it does.