3 ms·

Enforcing pax americana, even using aggressive means, is a moral cause in its own. The world under US control is more peaceful, more just and better to live in

Enforcing pax americana, even using aggressive means, is a moral cause in its own. The world under US control is more peaceful, more just and better to live in than any other conceivable alternative. Not all ideologies deserve equal foothold.

atemerev 2y ago
Aggression is not excusable. I am fond of American values, but unprovoked aggression is not one of them.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
explaininjs 2y ago
Controversial to be sure. But I'd challenge down-voters to instead (additionally?) provide a framework of their envisioned "conceivable alternative" new world order which would be more peaceful, just, and better to live in.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
  This is a healthy thought exercise. It's extremely easy to complain about the way that things are but difficult to envision something better. I red-pilled myself on a lot of issues by thinking like this regularly.
sofixa 2y ago
I'm sure that the millions of dead Iraqis, the embargoed Cubans, the millions of dead under brutal regimes sponsored by the US all over Latin America, Africa and Asia, the people kidnapped to be tortured by the CIA due to their name or watch type would be thrilled to hear about how peaceful, just and better to live things are. The US isn't a benevolent force for good, it's pure old capitalistic greed and realpolitik. That lots of good has happened thanks to it is mostly accidental.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
  But peace and stability is good for making money.
- throwaway290 2y ago
  Not benevolent force for good compared to what? Most estimates of Iraq war casualties are in 100-600 thousand range. The one estimate putting it at 1 million is an opinion poll. There are no estimates beyond 1 mil. But if you judge by body count, you have great examples of actual millions dead like holodomor instrumented by stalin (3+ millions of Ukrainians), Chinese famine due to mao policies (10+ millions), khmer rouge massacres (average estimate around 2 mil), etc. Something is common among them huh? US is not a saint and everyone makes mistakes but it is thanks to its influence and role in global economy we have drastically less death.
- ffgjgf1 2y ago
  I don’t think the US invasion resulted in a higher number deaths than Sadam’s actions in the 80s and 90. Not that this somehow justifies how its aftermath was handled... Anyway the world is not black and white and there is a lot of nuance, however the US was still probably the most benevolent “hegemonic” power that has ever existed in human history (especially relative to its power projection capabilities)
- explaininjs 2y ago
  You'll note the genocide of the entire Jewish people was not a part of your list of great travesties (and indeed they are). But the question is not "has the US done everything perfectly ever", it's: "Can you envision a better world order than Pax Americana? What, specifically, would that look like?"
nathan_compton 2y ago
Rational, non-ideologues, always use phrases like "Pax Americana" and "any other conceivable alternative."

atemerev 2y ago

Aggression is not excusable. I am fond of American values, but unprovoked aggression is not one of them.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

explaininjs 2y ago

Controversial to be sure. But I'd challenge down-voters to instead (additionally?) provide a framework of their envisioned "conceivable alternative" new world order which would be more peaceful, just, and better to live in.

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
This is a healthy thought exercise. It's extremely easy to complain about the way that things are but difficult to envision something better. I red-pilled myself on a lot of issues by thinking like this regularly.

sofixa 2y ago

I'm sure that the millions of dead Iraqis, the embargoed Cubans, the millions of dead under brutal regimes sponsored by the US all over Latin America, Africa and Asia, the people kidnapped to be tortured by the CIA due to their name or watch type would be thrilled to hear about how peaceful, just and better to live things are. The US isn't a benevolent force for good, it's pure old capitalistic greed and realpolitik. That lots of good has happened thanks to it is mostly accidental.

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
But peace and stability is good for making money.
throwaway290 2y ago
Not benevolent force for good compared to what? Most estimates of Iraq war casualties are in 100-600 thousand range. The one estimate putting it at 1 million is an opinion poll. There are no estimates beyond 1 mil. But if you judge by body count, you have great examples of actual millions dead like holodomor instrumented by stalin (3+ millions of Ukrainians), Chinese famine due to mao policies (10+ millions), khmer rouge massacres (average estimate around 2 mil), etc. Something is common among them huh? US is not a saint and everyone makes mistakes but it is thanks to its influence and role in global economy we have drastically less death.
ffgjgf1 2y ago
I don’t think the US invasion resulted in a higher number deaths than Sadam’s actions in the 80s and 90. Not that this somehow justifies how its aftermath was handled... Anyway the world is not black and white and there is a lot of nuance, however the US was still probably the most benevolent “hegemonic” power that has ever existed in human history (especially relative to its power projection capabilities)
explaininjs 2y ago
You'll note the genocide of the entire Jewish people was not a part of your list of great travesties (and indeed they are). But the question is not "has the US done everything perfectly ever", it's: "Can you envision a better world order than Pax Americana? What, specifically, would that look like?"

nathan_compton 2y ago

Rational, non-ideologues, always use phrases like "Pax Americana" and "any other conceivable alternative."