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Isn't the Lord of the Rings still under copyright? How come the Tolkien estate let a bunch of companies doing morally questionable stuff use names like Anduril

Isn't the Lord of the Rings still under copyright? How come the Tolkien estate let a bunch of companies doing morally questionable stuff use names like Anduril and Palantir?

jl6 2y ago
A single word cannot benefit from copyright protection, but a character can. It may be difficult to argue that Anduril and the Palantíri were characters, and even more difficult to argue that the commercial products named after them were substantially similar. Trademark protection may be more applicable, but the Tolkien estate may not have registered (or defended) trademarks for those two names, and if they did it could be argued that a defense company is not confusable with the original material. On the other hand, maybe both of those companies did secure a license from the Tolkien Estate.
- 1oooqooq 2y ago
  the owners of the blade runner ip did prevent google from using Nexus i think
  - galangalalgol 2y ago
    Nexus is from latin, and sonotype still uses the name.
    - thaumasiotes 2y ago
      Nexus is also an ordinary English word in current use.
      - Someone 2y ago
        That doesn’t necessarily make it free from trademark or copyright issues. Examples: “Apple” (https://www.apple.com/legal/intellectual-property/guidelinesfor3rdparties.html https://www.apple.com/legal/intellectual-property/guidelines..., https://www.apple.com/legal/intellectual-property/trademark/appletmlist.html https://www.apple.com/legal/intellectual-property/trademark/...), “Windows” (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/legal/intellectualproperty/trademarks https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/legal/intellectualproperty/t..., https://query.prod.cms.rt.microsoft.com/cms/api/am/binary/RWArzw https://query.prod.cms.rt.microsoft.com/cms/api/am/binary/RW...)
        thaumasiotes 2y ago
        But it's more relevant than the fact that the same word exists in Latin. On a similar note, trademark issues can't apply to Bladerunner, because it isn't a vendor.
  - johnbatch 2y ago
    Cisco nexus is their brand of datacenter switches. But also found this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Nexus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Nexus “ Upon the announcement of the first Nexus device, the Nexus One, the estate of science fiction author Philip K. Dick claimed that the Nexus One name capitalized on intellectual property from Dick's 1968 novel Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? and that the choice of name was a direct reference to the Nexus-6 series of androids in the novel.” Looks like there was a lawsuit, that was eventually settled out of court and we don’t know what was agreed.
    - wkat4242 2y ago
      Cisco ios is the name of their switch/router OS and that didn't stop Apple using it for theirs :)
- cherryteastain 2y ago
  Not an expert on IP law, so asking genuinely - is the threshold for copyright protection with respect to (unique) names whether the name belongs a character? So, Anduril and Palantir are okay, but Sauron or Aragorn would not be?
  - jl6 2y ago
    It's the character which may enjoy copyright protection, not the word in isolation. So if you write a story about a bad guy named Sauron who likes rings, you may be infringing, but if you launch a new candy bar named Sauron then it might be OK.
    - Oarch 2y ago
      And into this bar he poured all his caramel, his nougat and his will to dominate all the world's snacking aisles...
- KineticLensman 2y ago
  IIRC Tolkien himself prevented someone from calling a hydrofoil ‘Shadowfax’ but I think this may have been a polite letter rather than a legal process
persnickety 2y ago
Do single words even fall under copyright? They can be trademarked and that's why there's only one Mickey Mouse, but you're not going to trademark every proper name in a book you wrote...
jijijijij 2y ago
I don't think that's covered by copyright. I don't think authors can claim every word they come up with. You probably can't name a drone Harry Potter, but that's because it's a brand I presume.
airstrike 2y ago
Trademark and copyright are different things
atemerev 2y ago
Defense is not morally questionable. Particularly in the presence of adversaries who _are_ clearly morally questionable.
- Razengan 2y ago
  Everyone said the exact same shit for thousands of years.
  - explaininjs 2y ago
    Is your goal to support the idea or not? Universal acceptance of a moral perspective throughout history would typically be considered justification to continue accepting that perspective. Unless of course a new angle was provided that called into question said perspective. Which you have not done here.
- ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
  Of course, it's always "the others" who clearly are morally questionable.
  - atemerev 2y ago
    I am saying this as the "other". I am Russian (though not living in the country anymore). My country has started an unforgivable war of aggression. It is my imperative to do anything I can to remedy this. Some things are quite morally clear.
    - throwaway290 2y ago
      As also Russian I'm with you on this, let me get my share of downvotes
    - throwaway290 2y ago
      > though not living in the country anymor What do you think about the new law regarding not issuing passports abroad? Will return or have another citizenship?
District5524 2y ago
Copyright protection of characters is not harmonised at the international level (https://www.wipo.int/wipolex/en/text/283698 https://www.wipo.int/wipolex/en/text/283698), and is a very contentious area even within specific jurisdictions. Like, in the US, there are some tests, like "character delineation" and "story being told" test for protection to exist: how well developed that character is (Nichols v. Universal Pictures Corp.), so cannonfodders are not protected, main characters could be. In other countries, that protection is much stronger, like any uniquely, identifiable character (or even titles of literary works) practically receive such a protection (like in Hungary). But there is always a second layer of defense, like it's fair use, pastiche etc. Like in Germany, the German supreme court has decided that selling costumes of Pippi Longstockings is not within fair use (even if they do not call it "Pippi costume", of course). So, good luck for anyone choosing such names for their products to sort this out in litigation, probably not worth the risk here. It often just takes time for the copyright holders to notice and to react...
verticalscaler 2y ago
Morally questionable? Are they taking the Hobbits to Isengard?
seydor 2y ago
Also kinda dystopian that they use names from a child's tale
- Barrin92 2y ago
  it's not that surprising. Despite Tolkien's claims to the contrary there's a very obvious East vs West political narrative in Lord of the Rings, hence it's no accident that Palantir, Anduril etc draw from this. In fact geopolitics is pretty full of Tolkien metaphors, see the "Civlisation vs Orks" debates on Ukraine. There's a even a pretty good alt history take on this from a Russian writer in the 90s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer
  - spacebanana7 2y ago
    I find the WW1 parallel stronger. Imperial Germany, a nation of good people corrupted by colonial ambitions, draining the youth of Oxfordshire into the wasteland of the trenches. It also better fits Tolkien’s personal experience and the pre Cold War publication of the Hobbit. I suppose Ukraine’s also the modern conflict most similar to WW1 as well.
iainmerrick 2y ago
They changed the spelling from "Andúril" and "Palantír", so that must make it OK!
AlchemistCamp 2y ago
Aduril, "the flame of the west", was the name of Aragorn's sword which he used to defend his lands from Saruman's army. I honestly can't imagine a more respectful usage of the name. The Tolkien estate should be proud.
- vasco 2y ago
  Let's not pretend this isn't a more complex issue. "Should be proud" depends on their views of the military industrial complex, and the characterization of who is the "good guys" and "bad guys" is also much more complex in the real world. The US Empire isn't some pure benefector "protector of freedom" for the world. And it's also not an evil empire out to destroy the world. So it'd be reasonable to be against the use as it'd be for it.
  - AlchemistCamp 2y ago
    Anduril is largely an outsider attempting to disrupt "the military industrial complex" you speak of. To put it more bluntly, Tolkein was British. He lived through WWII. What other country in the world can you think of that has, would or even can fight as the UK's "protector of freedom" in the way that the US has? Amazingly, even in the case of the Ukraine war, which is right at the EU's border, it's America that's provided the most support. Even Korea has done more than many EU countries have.
    - vasco 2y ago
      You're defending one side of the position when I just said I can see both sides thinking they are right being a tennable position to hold. I don't disagre with your view, the same way I can see someone who is opposed to war being opposed to the usage.
      - AlchemistCamp 2y ago
        The "other side" isn't being opposed to war. The other side is actively starting wars by invading its neighbors or trying to take their territory. Anduril has played a critical role in defending Ukraine, but it has not created weapons used to invade Russia or any other country. > the same way I can see someone who is opposed to war being opposed to the usage. Why wouldn't this person be opposed to the invading army instead? I could foresee a possible future where Aduril has done horrible things in future decades, but up through 2024, I see a lot of good done and not much to condemn.
wkat4242 2y ago
Anduril is also a torch/flashlight OS (yes flashlights have OSes now). I didn't know it was a character of lord of the rings. Same with Palantir (Though 'Sauron' would have been a better name for that company XD ).

Isn't the Lord of the Rings still under copyright? How come the Tolkien estate let a bunch of companies doing morally questionable stuff use names like Anduril and Palantir?

jl6 2y ago

A single word cannot benefit from copyright protection, but a character can. It may be difficult to argue that Anduril and the Palantíri were characters, and even more difficult to argue that the commercial products named after them were substantially similar. Trademark protection may be more applicable, but the Tolkien estate may not have registered (or defended) trademarks for those two names, and if they did it could be argued that a defense company is not confusable with the original material. On the other hand, maybe both of those companies did secure a license from the Tolkien Estate.

1oooqooq 2y ago
the owners of the blade runner ip did prevent google from using Nexus i think
- galangalalgol 2y ago
  Nexus is from latin, and sonotype still uses the name.
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    Nexus is also an ordinary English word in current use.
    - Someone 2y ago
      That doesn’t necessarily make it free from trademark or copyright issues. Examples: “Apple” (https://www.apple.com/legal/intellectual-property/guidelinesfor3rdparties.html https://www.apple.com/legal/intellectual-property/guidelines..., https://www.apple.com/legal/intellectual-property/trademark/appletmlist.html https://www.apple.com/legal/intellectual-property/trademark/...), “Windows” (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/legal/intellectualproperty/trademarks https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/legal/intellectualproperty/t..., https://query.prod.cms.rt.microsoft.com/cms/api/am/binary/RWArzw https://query.prod.cms.rt.microsoft.com/cms/api/am/binary/RW...)
      - thaumasiotes 2y ago
        But it's more relevant than the fact that the same word exists in Latin. On a similar note, trademark issues can't apply to Bladerunner, because it isn't a vendor.
- johnbatch 2y ago
  Cisco nexus is their brand of datacenter switches. But also found this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Nexus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Nexus “ Upon the announcement of the first Nexus device, the Nexus One, the estate of science fiction author Philip K. Dick claimed that the Nexus One name capitalized on intellectual property from Dick's 1968 novel Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? and that the choice of name was a direct reference to the Nexus-6 series of androids in the novel.” Looks like there was a lawsuit, that was eventually settled out of court and we don’t know what was agreed.
  - wkat4242 2y ago
    Cisco ios is the name of their switch/router OS and that didn't stop Apple using it for theirs :)
cherryteastain 2y ago
Not an expert on IP law, so asking genuinely - is the threshold for copyright protection with respect to (unique) names whether the name belongs a character? So, Anduril and Palantir are okay, but Sauron or Aragorn would not be?
- jl6 2y ago
  It's the character which may enjoy copyright protection, not the word in isolation. So if you write a story about a bad guy named Sauron who likes rings, you may be infringing, but if you launch a new candy bar named Sauron then it might be OK.
  - Oarch 2y ago
    And into this bar he poured all his caramel, his nougat and his will to dominate all the world's snacking aisles...
KineticLensman 2y ago
IIRC Tolkien himself prevented someone from calling a hydrofoil ‘Shadowfax’ but I think this may have been a polite letter rather than a legal process

persnickety 2y ago

Do single words even fall under copyright? They can be trademarked and that's why there's only one Mickey Mouse, but you're not going to trademark every proper name in a book you wrote...

jijijijij 2y ago

I don't think that's covered by copyright. I don't think authors can claim every word they come up with. You probably can't name a drone Harry Potter, but that's because it's a brand I presume.

airstrike 2y ago

Trademark and copyright are different things

atemerev 2y ago

Defense is not morally questionable. Particularly in the presence of adversaries who _are_ clearly morally questionable.

Razengan 2y ago
Everyone said the exact same shit for thousands of years.
- explaininjs 2y ago
  Is your goal to support the idea or not? Universal acceptance of a moral perspective throughout history would typically be considered justification to continue accepting that perspective. Unless of course a new angle was provided that called into question said perspective. Which you have not done here.
ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
Of course, it's always "the others" who clearly are morally questionable.
- atemerev 2y ago
  I am saying this as the "other". I am Russian (though not living in the country anymore). My country has started an unforgivable war of aggression. It is my imperative to do anything I can to remedy this. Some things are quite morally clear.
  - throwaway290 2y ago
    As also Russian I'm with you on this, let me get my share of downvotes
  - throwaway290 2y ago
    > though not living in the country anymor What do you think about the new law regarding not issuing passports abroad? Will return or have another citizenship?

District5524 2y ago

Copyright protection of characters is not harmonised at the international level (https://www.wipo.int/wipolex/en/text/283698 https://www.wipo.int/wipolex/en/text/283698), and is a very contentious area even within specific jurisdictions. Like, in the US, there are some tests, like "character delineation" and "story being told" test for protection to exist: how well developed that character is (Nichols v. Universal Pictures Corp.), so cannonfodders are not protected, main characters could be. In other countries, that protection is much stronger, like any uniquely, identifiable character (or even titles of literary works) practically receive such a protection (like in Hungary). But there is always a second layer of defense, like it's fair use, pastiche etc. Like in Germany, the German supreme court has decided that selling costumes of Pippi Longstockings is not within fair use (even if they do not call it "Pippi costume", of course). So, good luck for anyone choosing such names for their products to sort this out in litigation, probably not worth the risk here. It often just takes time for the copyright holders to notice and to react...

verticalscaler 2y ago

Morally questionable? Are they taking the Hobbits to Isengard?

seydor 2y ago

Also kinda dystopian that they use names from a child's tale

Barrin92 2y ago
it's not that surprising. Despite Tolkien's claims to the contrary there's a very obvious East vs West political narrative in Lord of the Rings, hence it's no accident that Palantir, Anduril etc draw from this. In fact geopolitics is pretty full of Tolkien metaphors, see the "Civlisation vs Orks" debates on Ukraine. There's a even a pretty good alt history take on this from a Russian writer in the 90s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer
- spacebanana7 2y ago
  I find the WW1 parallel stronger. Imperial Germany, a nation of good people corrupted by colonial ambitions, draining the youth of Oxfordshire into the wasteland of the trenches. It also better fits Tolkien’s personal experience and the pre Cold War publication of the Hobbit. I suppose Ukraine’s also the modern conflict most similar to WW1 as well.

iainmerrick 2y ago

They changed the spelling from "Andúril" and "Palantír", so that must make it OK!

AlchemistCamp 2y ago

Aduril, "the flame of the west", was the name of Aragorn's sword which he used to defend his lands from Saruman's army. I honestly can't imagine a more respectful usage of the name. The Tolkien estate should be proud.

vasco 2y ago
Let's not pretend this isn't a more complex issue. "Should be proud" depends on their views of the military industrial complex, and the characterization of who is the "good guys" and "bad guys" is also much more complex in the real world. The US Empire isn't some pure benefector "protector of freedom" for the world. And it's also not an evil empire out to destroy the world. So it'd be reasonable to be against the use as it'd be for it.
- AlchemistCamp 2y ago
  Anduril is largely an outsider attempting to disrupt "the military industrial complex" you speak of. To put it more bluntly, Tolkein was British. He lived through WWII. What other country in the world can you think of that has, would or even can fight as the UK's "protector of freedom" in the way that the US has? Amazingly, even in the case of the Ukraine war, which is right at the EU's border, it's America that's provided the most support. Even Korea has done more than many EU countries have.
  - vasco 2y ago
    You're defending one side of the position when I just said I can see both sides thinking they are right being a tennable position to hold. I don't disagre with your view, the same way I can see someone who is opposed to war being opposed to the usage.
    - AlchemistCamp 2y ago
      The "other side" isn't being opposed to war. The other side is actively starting wars by invading its neighbors or trying to take their territory. Anduril has played a critical role in defending Ukraine, but it has not created weapons used to invade Russia or any other country. > the same way I can see someone who is opposed to war being opposed to the usage. Why wouldn't this person be opposed to the invading army instead? I could foresee a possible future where Aduril has done horrible things in future decades, but up through 2024, I see a lot of good done and not much to condemn.

wkat4242 2y ago

Anduril is also a torch/flashlight OS (yes flashlights have OSes now). I didn't know it was a character of lord of the rings. Same with Palantir (Though 'Sauron' would have been a better name for that company XD ).