9 ms·

Can Linus ever not sound like a pompous jackass?

novalis 14y ago
I think so ionforce, you are just projecting heavily. I seen a 60 minutes piece with him and in it, he sounded perfectly reasonable.
- koeselitz 14y ago
  I wouldn't call it 'projection' necessarily. Linus Torvalds can seem like a pompous jackass sometimes, it's true. But it's useful to keep in mind the context of this comment of his. Linus is a guy who spent many, many years fighting an unusually and unnecessarily difficult battle to prevent something he created from being coopted and stolen by a copyright troll, SCO. So this is somewhat personal for him.
- B-Con 14y ago
  He speaks very reasonably, it's just his writing style. I think he's one of those people who's choice of written word does not always convey the tone they would have conveyed in person. And, to be fair, he does intentionally say things in an over-the-top way to be funny, although such statements pretty much always have an element of truth.
  - re_todd 14y ago
    Good point. I took a course on business communication, and remember learning that tone is often lost in writing. You may send an email to someone in a friendly, playful mood, but it can come across as sarcastic and/or rude to the recipient.
- trentmb 14y ago
  Of course he would, he's in person. It's easier to be mean on the internet than in person. Not to mention no one has perfected punching someone through the internet.
  - ktizo 14y ago
    no one has perfected punching someone through the internet I can see serious problems in the design and certification stages, but the marketing should be extremely easy.
  - willvarfar 14y ago
    he made `git blame`
runjake 14y ago
From the little I do know about Linus, I think it's less pomp and more a mix of some ratio between his style of playful, tongue-in-cheek impishness and anger depending on what kind of day he's having. He's a pretty nice fellow for the most part.
- bradwestness 14y ago
  He's also constantly inundated with arguments/accusations/requests from idiots. If you ever read through some of his Linux newsletter arguments, you can see why he'd develop a take-no-prisoners style of communicating.
  - sophacles 14y ago
    He could take the killfile approach to lkml... of course that would get him just as much hate. It's really a lose-lose situation, no good way of getting people to stop with the "im right and won't stop pestering you even though it's your project" stuff without pissing off one half of the internet or the other. The oddest thing is, as I read random lkml threads that interest me, it seems that Linus isn't a jerk immediately when people bring up stuff - even well hashed stuff. When he is wrong, he admits it, and seems reasonable about patches that aren't perfect/up to snuff, particularly from newer devs who are trying to do well. It's when the threads go on and on that it seems to degrade. (or when a topic that is famous for being a no-go is brought up... but i think it's fair to at least understand the thing you are trying to contribute to, particularly as well documented as linux).
  - Danieru 14y ago
    To illustrate the point here is a 'complex' email from him on the 16th: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/5/19/97 https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/5/19/97 Now here is him on an un-related issue apologising: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/5/21/230 https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/5/21/230 For linus the github 'discussion' was an everyday thing. He speaks his mind and will apologise if he is wrong, such is the order of the day on the kernel mailing list.
DanBC 14y ago
There may be cultural factors at work here. In England when you say "Hello! How are you?" the answer is almost always "Very well thanks, how about you?", even if the person is not very well. This is considered polite. Other countries find this odd, and consider it lying. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13545386 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13545386)
- pjmlp 14y ago
  In Portugal it is the same. People don't really want to know the details how you feel, it is just a way of greeting.
- arethuza 14y ago
  I remember going in for a surgical procedure a few years back and just before the operation a non-British doctor told me "This is really going to hurt" - I was expecting "There may be some slight discomfort", which is the usual British way of saying "This is REALLY going to hurt". I was quite concerned (i.e. British for "terrified") until they gave me the pre-med Valium. And yes, it did sting a bit.
- jdhzzz 14y ago
  My grandmother would say: "How are you (not that I give a damn)?".
zdw 14y ago
Linus is a bit brusque on a regular basis. Many people in OS design/development tend to be that way (Theo DeRaadt being another). It's less of someone being a jerk, and more of them being direct and to the point, coupled with a large degree of cynicism.
- a3d6g2f7 14y ago
  And I will take that, if coupled with demonstrated competence and a solid, sensible vision, over being "nice", "accomodating" and "willing to answer questions", every time. This attitude is not true of all OS developers, though. There are lots who are really even-tempered. But they are also very focused and not necessarily willing to accomodate everyone with a "bright idea". While it might make the learning curve a bit steeper for mere mortals, I actually believe this is what makes a better OS. I would be interested to see a "Linux" where Torvalds also controlled the userland. What would it be like?
  - excuse-me 14y ago
    You are looking for a quicker, shorter, terser version of the unix commandline ?
    - a3d6g2f7 14y ago
      Version? Not sure what you mean. Some other way to interact with the kernel, besides a "shell"? Quicker, shorter, terser sounds good to me, whatever it is. Or maybe you mean if he wrote his own shell?
      - excuse-me 14y ago
        < humor explain=verbose > The parent post said that Linus' writing was extremely terse and "to the point" and what would happen if Linux wrote the userspace. The joke was that Unix's typical user interface, the shell, isn't exactly overflowing with unecessary verbose "fluff"
        14y ago
Jach 14y ago
Read his family blog, or even better emails on the Linux kernel mailing list, since he's sent quite a lot over the years. Apart from when he calls out someone for being stupid and ugly, he sounds very nice. You'll find many instances where he sounds neither pompous nor mean.
rdtsc 14y ago
I can accept one's arrogance and lack of social grace being proportional to their contribution. So Linus in my book can be a total jackass and it would probably still be ok. In reality I think he is just direct and says exactly what he means.

I think so ionforce, you are just projecting heavily. I seen a 60 minutes piece with him and in it, he sounded perfectly reasonable.

koeselitz 14y ago
I wouldn't call it 'projection' necessarily. Linus Torvalds can seem like a pompous jackass sometimes, it's true. But it's useful to keep in mind the context of this comment of his. Linus is a guy who spent many, many years fighting an unusually and unnecessarily difficult battle to prevent something he created from being coopted and stolen by a copyright troll, SCO. So this is somewhat personal for him.
B-Con 14y ago
He speaks very reasonably, it's just his writing style. I think he's one of those people who's choice of written word does not always convey the tone they would have conveyed in person. And, to be fair, he does intentionally say things in an over-the-top way to be funny, although such statements pretty much always have an element of truth.
- re_todd 14y ago
  Good point. I took a course on business communication, and remember learning that tone is often lost in writing. You may send an email to someone in a friendly, playful mood, but it can come across as sarcastic and/or rude to the recipient.
trentmb 14y ago
Of course he would, he's in person. It's easier to be mean on the internet than in person. Not to mention no one has perfected punching someone through the internet.
- ktizo 14y ago
  no one has perfected punching someone through the internet I can see serious problems in the design and certification stages, but the marketing should be extremely easy.
- willvarfar 14y ago
  he made `git blame`

runjake 14y ago

From the little I do know about Linus, I think it's less pomp and more a mix of some ratio between his style of playful, tongue-in-cheek impishness and anger depending on what kind of day he's having. He's a pretty nice fellow for the most part.

bradwestness 14y ago
He's also constantly inundated with arguments/accusations/requests from idiots. If you ever read through some of his Linux newsletter arguments, you can see why he'd develop a take-no-prisoners style of communicating.
- sophacles 14y ago
  He could take the killfile approach to lkml... of course that would get him just as much hate. It's really a lose-lose situation, no good way of getting people to stop with the "im right and won't stop pestering you even though it's your project" stuff without pissing off one half of the internet or the other. The oddest thing is, as I read random lkml threads that interest me, it seems that Linus isn't a jerk immediately when people bring up stuff - even well hashed stuff. When he is wrong, he admits it, and seems reasonable about patches that aren't perfect/up to snuff, particularly from newer devs who are trying to do well. It's when the threads go on and on that it seems to degrade. (or when a topic that is famous for being a no-go is brought up... but i think it's fair to at least understand the thing you are trying to contribute to, particularly as well documented as linux).
- Danieru 14y ago
  To illustrate the point here is a 'complex' email from him on the 16th: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/5/19/97 https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/5/19/97 Now here is him on an un-related issue apologising: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/5/21/230 https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/5/21/230 For linus the github 'discussion' was an everyday thing. He speaks his mind and will apologise if he is wrong, such is the order of the day on the kernel mailing list.

DanBC 14y ago

There may be cultural factors at work here. In England when you say "Hello! How are you?" the answer is almost always "Very well thanks, how about you?", even if the person is not very well. This is considered polite. Other countries find this odd, and consider it lying. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13545386 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13545386)

pjmlp 14y ago
In Portugal it is the same. People don't really want to know the details how you feel, it is just a way of greeting.
arethuza 14y ago
I remember going in for a surgical procedure a few years back and just before the operation a non-British doctor told me "This is really going to hurt" - I was expecting "There may be some slight discomfort", which is the usual British way of saying "This is REALLY going to hurt". I was quite concerned (i.e. British for "terrified") until they gave me the pre-med Valium. And yes, it did sting a bit.
jdhzzz 14y ago
My grandmother would say: "How are you (not that I give a damn)?".

zdw 14y ago

Linus is a bit brusque on a regular basis. Many people in OS design/development tend to be that way (Theo DeRaadt being another). It's less of someone being a jerk, and more of them being direct and to the point, coupled with a large degree of cynicism.

a3d6g2f7 14y ago
And I will take that, if coupled with demonstrated competence and a solid, sensible vision, over being "nice", "accomodating" and "willing to answer questions", every time. This attitude is not true of all OS developers, though. There are lots who are really even-tempered. But they are also very focused and not necessarily willing to accomodate everyone with a "bright idea". While it might make the learning curve a bit steeper for mere mortals, I actually believe this is what makes a better OS. I would be interested to see a "Linux" where Torvalds also controlled the userland. What would it be like?
- excuse-me 14y ago
  You are looking for a quicker, shorter, terser version of the unix commandline ?
  - a3d6g2f7 14y ago
    Version? Not sure what you mean. Some other way to interact with the kernel, besides a "shell"? Quicker, shorter, terser sounds good to me, whatever it is. Or maybe you mean if he wrote his own shell?
    - excuse-me 14y ago
      < humor explain=verbose > The parent post said that Linus' writing was extremely terse and "to the point" and what would happen if Linux wrote the userspace. The joke was that Unix's typical user interface, the shell, isn't exactly overflowing with unecessary verbose "fluff"
      - 14y ago

Jach 14y ago

Read his family blog, or even better emails on the Linux kernel mailing list, since he's sent quite a lot over the years. Apart from when he calls out someone for being stupid and ugly, he sounds very nice. You'll find many instances where he sounds neither pompous nor mean.

rdtsc 14y ago

I can accept one's arrogance and lack of social grace being proportional to their contribution. So Linus in my book can be a total jackass and it would probably still be ok. In reality I think he is just direct and says exactly what he means.