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Should other countries do the same with US companies? US government regularly (ab)uses FISA to get data on foreign nationals: https://transparency.meta.com/repo

by troupo 3y ago

Should other countries do the same with US companies? US government regularly (ab)uses FISA to get data on foreign nationals: https://transparency.meta.com/reports/government-data-requests/ https://transparency.meta.com/reports/government-data-reques... > Parallel to this we need a federal national data privacy law that protects us but also cracks down on the huge industry of data brokers selling Americans’ data to anyone that has cash. And also dismantle the law where the US can request any data on any person, even abroad, if the company is US-based

LexGray 3y ago
Given the well documented Russian tendency to wage nation hostile whisper campaigns and app algorithms natural tendencies to promote such speech we are in place where every country both democratic and not have CIA levels of disorder, new mental health issues, and general productivity drain introduced by social apps. I think every country should take a hard look at what is happening and should consider banning or time limiting some U.S. apps. I believe the underlying narrative of TikTok was with government control the algorithms would be purposefully tuned to promote disorder elsewhere which is a level of control the U.S. government does not have over U.S. companies and they were jealous (although with the level of information control during Desert Storm I am not 100% certain on that). However, I think this law was very premature and should have required evidence of tuning or actual war. While soldiers may have apps they should not the spies should know better. The China side where they have banned encryption apps also seems to be war preparation. A digital iron curtain while depressing for the population behind it is not something that can be torn down from the outside. A per app legal war seems an unfeasible use of congressional time when many Chinese smart device control apps require location to function and are on many phones. This also appears to be an opening shot by congress for putting up a U.S. national firewall if TikTok just leaves all US offices and continues business through web based offerings.
account42 3y ago
> Should other countries do the same with US companies? Absolutely.
timeon 3y ago
> Should other countries do the same with US companies? US government regularly (ab)uses FISA to get data on foreign nationals This is already in process in case of EU: https://noyb.eu/en/update-cnil-decides-eu-us-data-transfer-google-analytics-illegal https://noyb.eu/en/update-cnil-decides-eu-us-data-transfer-g...
- cccbbbaaa 3y ago
  This decision is based on Schrems II, which does not really apply anymore since the DPF. Though the latter is already being challenged.
alcoholic_byte 3y ago
It is called a fortified democracy. And absolute democracy like the Weimarer Republik is a dangerous thing. All modern democracies are fortified these days. And it is good that they are. And yes if the US is caught with the hand in the cookie jar the nation in question is not happy, but there is a difference: Spying is passive and not influencing the democratic process of the nation or disrupting it. The concern with Tiktok is that it is active, trying to disrupt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T_Lu1S0sII https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T_Lu1S0sII Also, unlike the Bytedance and the Chinese Government, US companies do not run intelligence operations. They are in it solely for the money, otherwise the NSA wouldn't have had to snoop on Google in 2013(?). and this point > And also dismantle the law where the US can request any data on any person, even abroad, if the company is US-based I find questionable. It is too blanketed. There are international criminals afoot after all. Red Letters do have their purpose as do international treaties for law enforcement to cooperate across borders in a bespoke manner in accordance with their and international laws.
- aurareturn 3y ago
  >Also, unlike the Bytedance and the Chinese Government, US companies do not run intelligence operations. Is this a joke?
  - alcoholic_byte 3y ago
    No. Feel free to educate me though. Only request I have, nothing older than 30 years please as I feel it may not be relevant any longer and before long we would argue about the antebellum period and what have you not. And it must be large scale.
- troupo 3y ago
  > I find questionable. It is too blanketed. There are international criminals afoot after all. Red Letters do have their purpose as do international treaties for law enforcement to cooperate across borders in a bespoke manner in accordance with their and international laws. There's a difference between "Hey, France, we would like this info on a known criminal" and "U.S.-based companies have to turn over all data on any person regardless of that data location or the nationality of the person in question". That's basically the basis for both Schrems I and Schrems II. Edit: See also CLOUD Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act --- start quote --- The CLOUD Act primarily amends the Stored Communications Act (SCA) of 1986 to allow federal law enforcement to compel U.S.-based technology companies via warrant or subpoena to provide requested data stored on servers regardless of whether the data are stored in the U.S. or on foreign soil --- end quote ---

by troupo 3y ago

LexGray 3y ago

Given the well documented Russian tendency to wage nation hostile whisper campaigns and app algorithms natural tendencies to promote such speech we are in place where every country both democratic and not have CIA levels of disorder, new mental health issues, and general productivity drain introduced by social apps. I think every country should take a hard look at what is happening and should consider banning or time limiting some U.S. apps. I believe the underlying narrative of TikTok was with government control the algorithms would be purposefully tuned to promote disorder elsewhere which is a level of control the U.S. government does not have over U.S. companies and they were jealous (although with the level of information control during Desert Storm I am not 100% certain on that). However, I think this law was very premature and should have required evidence of tuning or actual war. While soldiers may have apps they should not the spies should know better. The China side where they have banned encryption apps also seems to be war preparation. A digital iron curtain while depressing for the population behind it is not something that can be torn down from the outside. A per app legal war seems an unfeasible use of congressional time when many Chinese smart device control apps require location to function and are on many phones. This also appears to be an opening shot by congress for putting up a U.S. national firewall if TikTok just leaves all US offices and continues business through web based offerings.

account42 3y ago

> Should other countries do the same with US companies? Absolutely.

timeon 3y ago

> Should other countries do the same with US companies? US government regularly (ab)uses FISA to get data on foreign nationals This is already in process in case of EU: https://noyb.eu/en/update-cnil-decides-eu-us-data-transfer-google-analytics-illegal https://noyb.eu/en/update-cnil-decides-eu-us-data-transfer-g...

cccbbbaaa 3y ago
This decision is based on Schrems II, which does not really apply anymore since the DPF. Though the latter is already being challenged.

alcoholic_byte 3y ago

It is called a fortified democracy. And absolute democracy like the Weimarer Republik is a dangerous thing. All modern democracies are fortified these days. And it is good that they are. And yes if the US is caught with the hand in the cookie jar the nation in question is not happy, but there is a difference: Spying is passive and not influencing the democratic process of the nation or disrupting it. The concern with Tiktok is that it is active, trying to disrupt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T_Lu1S0sII https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T_Lu1S0sII Also, unlike the Bytedance and the Chinese Government, US companies do not run intelligence operations. They are in it solely for the money, otherwise the NSA wouldn't have had to snoop on Google in 2013(?). and this point > And also dismantle the law where the US can request any data on any person, even abroad, if the company is US-based I find questionable. It is too blanketed. There are international criminals afoot after all. Red Letters do have their purpose as do international treaties for law enforcement to cooperate across borders in a bespoke manner in accordance with their and international laws.

aurareturn 3y ago
>Also, unlike the Bytedance and the Chinese Government, US companies do not run intelligence operations. Is this a joke?
- alcoholic_byte 3y ago
  No. Feel free to educate me though. Only request I have, nothing older than 30 years please as I feel it may not be relevant any longer and before long we would argue about the antebellum period and what have you not. And it must be large scale.
troupo 3y ago
> I find questionable. It is too blanketed. There are international criminals afoot after all. Red Letters do have their purpose as do international treaties for law enforcement to cooperate across borders in a bespoke manner in accordance with their and international laws. There's a difference between "Hey, France, we would like this info on a known criminal" and "U.S.-based companies have to turn over all data on any person regardless of that data location or the nationality of the person in question". That's basically the basis for both Schrems I and Schrems II. Edit: See also CLOUD Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act --- start quote --- The CLOUD Act primarily amends the Stored Communications Act (SCA) of 1986 to allow federal law enforcement to compel U.S.-based technology companies via warrant or subpoena to provide requested data stored on servers regardless of whether the data are stored in the U.S. or on foreign soil --- end quote ---