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There's definitely more than one problem with defense procurement, one of the biggest problems is simply having straightforward, acheivable goals in the first p

There's definitely more than one problem with defense procurement, one of the biggest problems is simply having straightforward, acheivable goals in the first place and not fucking with them halfway through the process. And honestly at this point the Air Force is handling this much better than the other branches. Despite all the delays and cost overruns on the F-22 and F-35 projects, at least we ended up with really fantastic and capable platforms. The B-21 is also basically on time and budget, which is nice. Compare that to the Navy's LCS program, a massively expensive clusterfuck with very few redeeming qualities. The Army is somewhere in the middle.

7thaccount 3y ago
The LCS situation is embarrassing. What is the navy working on now? Replacements to the Arleigh Burke destroyers?
- relaxing 3y ago
  Depends on what you mean by “working.” DDG-1000 is still kicking around trying to figure out what to do with itself. DDG(X) is in a requirements development phase. FFG-62 is actually getting built. There are various autonomous surface and sub efforts that may turn into something.
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    They're also upgrading some Arleigh Burkes (and everything bigger that will stay in service) with SEWIP Block III (EW).
- iraqmtpizza 3y ago
  The new hotness is the Constellation-class frigate which chose a mature design to keep costs down. That was until feature creep completely consumed it in record time: "At one point the Constellation design shared about 85 percent commonality with the original FREMM design, but the alterations have brought that commonality down to under 15 percent, a person familiar with the changes told USNI News." https://news.usni.org/2024/04/02/constellation-frigate-delivery-delayed-3-years-says-navy https://news.usni.org/2024/04/02/constellation-frigate-deliv...
  - 7thaccount 3y ago
    Every single time.
mesofile 3y ago
"Starve before doing business with the damned Navy. They don't know what the hell they want and will drive you up a wall before they break either your heart or a more exposed part of your anatomy." — Kelly Johnson Shocking that this quote still rings true a half-century later. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Johnson_(engineer)#Kelly_Johnson's_14_Rules_of_Management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Johnson_(engineer)#Kelly...
- justin66 3y ago
  Ben Rich expanded on Johnson's advice regarding the Navy in his book, although I think he also conceded that the Navy has some pretty good engineers.
  - ToDougie 3y ago
    Skunk Works is such a fantastic book. Would recommend to all engineers.
eropple 3y ago
> Compare that to the Navy's LCS program, a massively expensive clusterfuck with very few redeeming qualities. Which, to be fair to the Navy, is as much Congressional meddling and military procurement seeding--if you stop paying your contractors, they stop being military contractors and the knowledge you'd like walks out the door, which doesn't excuse the LCS program but does explain some of it--as anything else. When we say that we're bad at procurement in the United States, there's a lot of targets for blame. (I think you're right that the Air Force tends to have the best project execution of the service branches though.)
- ethbr1 3y ago
  Imho, the service branches are defined by and structured around the type of equipment required to complete their missions. The Navy builds years-long expensive ships, then sends them halfway around the world under command of someone. It has a structure to facilitate that. The Army (at best) efficiency organizes a huge amount of people and material, and it deploys and sustains it wherever needed. It has a structure to facilitate that. The Air Force procures, operates, and sustains the most technical platforms. So it's gotten halfway decent at doing that, or at least learned some lessons from repeated mistakes. It has a structure to facilitate that. (And the Marines scrounge through everyone's trash bin, cobble something together, and come out armed to the teeth) Point being, if you look at the people who have risen to the ranks of power, they've been moulded to fit their service culture. Which means some services might not be as good as procurement...
  - sandworm101 3y ago
    >> The Air Force procures, operates, and sustains the most technical platforms. Space force. It is like flying a billion-dollar fighter jet that you will never be allowed to repair after it takes off for the first time.
    - ethbr1 3y ago
      Space Force is still mostly Air Force though, and I'd expect it to take awhile to form it's own culture.
Shawnj2 3y ago
Cost plus contracts are a mistake. If you get paid to do something, it should be for a fixed price not a variable number that encourages you to waste as much taxpayer money as you want. If you can’t do it for that price you need to increase your estimate until you can.

7thaccount 3y ago

The LCS situation is embarrassing. What is the navy working on now? Replacements to the Arleigh Burke destroyers?

relaxing 3y ago
Depends on what you mean by “working.” DDG-1000 is still kicking around trying to figure out what to do with itself. DDG(X) is in a requirements development phase. FFG-62 is actually getting built. There are various autonomous surface and sub efforts that may turn into something.
- ethbr1 3y ago
  They're also upgrading some Arleigh Burkes (and everything bigger that will stay in service) with SEWIP Block III (EW).
iraqmtpizza 3y ago
The new hotness is the Constellation-class frigate which chose a mature design to keep costs down. That was until feature creep completely consumed it in record time: "At one point the Constellation design shared about 85 percent commonality with the original FREMM design, but the alterations have brought that commonality down to under 15 percent, a person familiar with the changes told USNI News." https://news.usni.org/2024/04/02/constellation-frigate-delivery-delayed-3-years-says-navy https://news.usni.org/2024/04/02/constellation-frigate-deliv...
- 7thaccount 3y ago
  Every single time.

mesofile 3y ago

"Starve before doing business with the damned Navy. They don't know what the hell they want and will drive you up a wall before they break either your heart or a more exposed part of your anatomy." — Kelly Johnson Shocking that this quote still rings true a half-century later. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Johnson_(engineer)#Kelly_Johnson's_14_Rules_of_Management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Johnson_(engineer)#Kelly...

justin66 3y ago
Ben Rich expanded on Johnson's advice regarding the Navy in his book, although I think he also conceded that the Navy has some pretty good engineers.
- ToDougie 3y ago
  Skunk Works is such a fantastic book. Would recommend to all engineers.

eropple 3y ago

> Compare that to the Navy's LCS program, a massively expensive clusterfuck with very few redeeming qualities. Which, to be fair to the Navy, is as much Congressional meddling and military procurement seeding--if you stop paying your contractors, they stop being military contractors and the knowledge you'd like walks out the door, which doesn't excuse the LCS program but does explain some of it--as anything else. When we say that we're bad at procurement in the United States, there's a lot of targets for blame. (I think you're right that the Air Force tends to have the best project execution of the service branches though.)

ethbr1 3y ago
Imho, the service branches are defined by and structured around the type of equipment required to complete their missions. The Navy builds years-long expensive ships, then sends them halfway around the world under command of someone. It has a structure to facilitate that. The Army (at best) efficiency organizes a huge amount of people and material, and it deploys and sustains it wherever needed. It has a structure to facilitate that. The Air Force procures, operates, and sustains the most technical platforms. So it's gotten halfway decent at doing that, or at least learned some lessons from repeated mistakes. It has a structure to facilitate that. (And the Marines scrounge through everyone's trash bin, cobble something together, and come out armed to the teeth) Point being, if you look at the people who have risen to the ranks of power, they've been moulded to fit their service culture. Which means some services might not be as good as procurement...
- sandworm101 3y ago
  >> The Air Force procures, operates, and sustains the most technical platforms. Space force. It is like flying a billion-dollar fighter jet that you will never be allowed to repair after it takes off for the first time.
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    Space Force is still mostly Air Force though, and I'd expect it to take awhile to form it's own culture.

Shawnj2 3y ago

Cost plus contracts are a mistake. If you get paid to do something, it should be for a fixed price not a variable number that encourages you to waste as much taxpayer money as you want. If you can’t do it for that price you need to increase your estimate until you can.