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The actual critique - which is articulated in many places - is that "white" isn't an ethnic group with an actual cultural or racial lineage. Instead, "white" wa

The actual critique - which is articulated in many places - is that "white" isn't an ethnic group with an actual cultural or racial lineage. Instead, "white" was created and exists as the dual to "colored" - a shifting category encompassing many ethnicities that describes their position in a set of power structures, historically colonialism. Consider that "whiteness" has changed considerably over the usage of the term, with many ethnicities (irish, italian) shifting into it as their position in American society (the cultural superpower of the time) changed. To consider this further, shift the power structures and see how whiteness changes. Who is considered "white" in the historic USSR and contemporary ex-bloc states is radically different than the usage in America at the same time. This is even more complicated in places like Central or South America, India, and parts of Asia. I guarantee that - if you weren't versed with local power dynamics and colorism history - you wouldn't be able to classify who on the street is generally considered "white" in Buenos Aires.

colourizer 2y ago
[flagged]
hotdogscout 2y ago
The shift in labels and categories applies to all ethnicities, not just whites, even in the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule All of the definitions are contested and subject to localities, not just whiteness. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263722423_Not_black_but_Habasha_Ethiopian_and_Eritrean_immigrants_in_American_society https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263722423_Not_black... >is that "white" isn't an ethnic group with an actual cultural or racial lineage. None of them are. There's more genetic diversity in sub Saharan Africa than in any other place on earth. People from Asia and people from Africa don't identify as black or asian as a consistent racial lineage.They're also a western ad hoc hodge podge just as much as whiteness is. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people None of your explanations single out white people as an especially fake identity inconsistent with asian or black.
- lanternfish 2y ago
  I'm confused - it seems like every example you give here supports the theoretical conclusion above. "Black" as used in the editorial above is a very specific usage - replacing "African American" for the critical reasons outlined. The reason this group is unique as an ethnicity w.r.t. recategorization is because the structure and violence of slavery isolated them from historic ethnicities and forcefully regrouped them under a new one. This is why in that Habecker paper, peoples with dark skin and african heritage who were not part of that system try to separate themselves from that identity - that's why it exists! I'd also argue that "Asian" probably _shouldn't_ be capitalized, and there are some theorists who agree. Really, asian only really exists as an ethnic category because Americans historically (and even now) couldn't really be assed to learn the basic geography of Asia and grouped it all.
  - hotdogscout 2y ago
    It's easy to be confused when you keep changing your definitions when they're not consistent! "is that "white" isn't an ethnic group with an actual cultural or racial lineage". "The reason this group is unique as an ethnicity w.r.t. recategorization is because the structure and violence of slavery isolated them from historic ethnicities and forcefully regrouped them under a new one." Conflicting statements. According to you white people don't have historic ethnicities but black people also don't because of slavery and that is why they deserve capitalization?
rpmisms 2y ago
Black isn't an ethnic group either. There are black people from Africa, Pacific islands, Australia, South America, and India. It's a descriptor, not an immutable category that defines you, and it's uniquely used here in America.
- orf 2y ago
  [flagged]
- lanternfish 2y ago
  In America, captital-B Black is usually used to refer to people who were forcefully disconnected from their ancestry by the imposition of slavery. In many theoretical frameworks, it is an entirely new ethnic group by virtue of their original ethnicity being severed and the forced co-reculturalization through slavery and the subsequent (and continuing) power structures that forcefully and implicitly group them together.
  - rpmisms 2y ago
    Except that it also contains recent Ugandan immigrants who moved here by choice and work as surgeons. Just like white, it's a big umbrella and rough category.
    - lanternfish 2y ago
      I agree that there's complexity there, but it's worth noting that it is a point of moderate contention whether those immigrants share the Black identity or just the black identity. More knowledgeable theorists than myself (and notably those actually party to these identities) have discussed this at more depth, and I recommend digging into it if you're interested.
      - rpmisms 2y ago
        I'm not digging into racial pseudoscience, nor do I have any interest in such. Are these the same types of people who say that being on time and respectful are "white" values? Those people are stupid and/or malicious.
matheusmoreira 2y ago
"White" is almost always a proxy for the british and their former empire, now represented by america's elites. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestants

colourizer 2y ago

[flagged]

hotdogscout 2y ago

The shift in labels and categories applies to all ethnicities, not just whites, even in the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule All of the definitions are contested and subject to localities, not just whiteness. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263722423_Not_black_but_Habasha_Ethiopian_and_Eritrean_immigrants_in_American_society https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263722423_Not_black... >is that "white" isn't an ethnic group with an actual cultural or racial lineage. None of them are. There's more genetic diversity in sub Saharan Africa than in any other place on earth. People from Asia and people from Africa don't identify as black or asian as a consistent racial lineage.They're also a western ad hoc hodge podge just as much as whiteness is. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people None of your explanations single out white people as an especially fake identity inconsistent with asian or black.

lanternfish 2y ago
I'm confused - it seems like every example you give here supports the theoretical conclusion above. "Black" as used in the editorial above is a very specific usage - replacing "African American" for the critical reasons outlined. The reason this group is unique as an ethnicity w.r.t. recategorization is because the structure and violence of slavery isolated them from historic ethnicities and forcefully regrouped them under a new one. This is why in that Habecker paper, peoples with dark skin and african heritage who were not part of that system try to separate themselves from that identity - that's why it exists! I'd also argue that "Asian" probably _shouldn't_ be capitalized, and there are some theorists who agree. Really, asian only really exists as an ethnic category because Americans historically (and even now) couldn't really be assed to learn the basic geography of Asia and grouped it all.
- hotdogscout 2y ago
  It's easy to be confused when you keep changing your definitions when they're not consistent! "is that "white" isn't an ethnic group with an actual cultural or racial lineage". "The reason this group is unique as an ethnicity w.r.t. recategorization is because the structure and violence of slavery isolated them from historic ethnicities and forcefully regrouped them under a new one." Conflicting statements. According to you white people don't have historic ethnicities but black people also don't because of slavery and that is why they deserve capitalization?

rpmisms 2y ago

Black isn't an ethnic group either. There are black people from Africa, Pacific islands, Australia, South America, and India. It's a descriptor, not an immutable category that defines you, and it's uniquely used here in America.

orf 2y ago
[flagged]
lanternfish 2y ago
In America, captital-B Black is usually used to refer to people who were forcefully disconnected from their ancestry by the imposition of slavery. In many theoretical frameworks, it is an entirely new ethnic group by virtue of their original ethnicity being severed and the forced co-reculturalization through slavery and the subsequent (and continuing) power structures that forcefully and implicitly group them together.
- rpmisms 2y ago
  Except that it also contains recent Ugandan immigrants who moved here by choice and work as surgeons. Just like white, it's a big umbrella and rough category.
  - lanternfish 2y ago
    I agree that there's complexity there, but it's worth noting that it is a point of moderate contention whether those immigrants share the Black identity or just the black identity. More knowledgeable theorists than myself (and notably those actually party to these identities) have discussed this at more depth, and I recommend digging into it if you're interested.
    - rpmisms 2y ago
      I'm not digging into racial pseudoscience, nor do I have any interest in such. Are these the same types of people who say that being on time and respectful are "white" values? Those people are stupid and/or malicious.

matheusmoreira 2y ago

"White" is almost always a proxy for the british and their former empire, now represented by america's elites. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestants