3 ms·

I fell into the 20-24 age and was deeply suicidal last year. There were two main factors at the time, aside from my usual depression 1) horrendous and soul-cru

by jarbus 2y ago

I fell into the 20-24 age and was deeply suicidal last year. There were two main factors at the time, aside from my usual depression 1) horrendous and soul-crushing job market that constantly signaled to me that I had no value 2) incredibly skewed expectations of success due to the internet I’ve moved past it for now, luckily, but I’m seeing a lot of people struggle, particularly men, and get left behind, with virtually nobody trying to make us feel valued or supported on the societal level. Many men, especially those without prospects for getting married/having kids, really don’t have a good reason to go on except pure hedonism. And that can only go so far.

swatcoder 2y ago
> Many men, especially those without prospects for getting married/having kids, really don’t have a good reason to go on except pure hedonism. And that can only go so far. FWIW, the missing element in this framing is real, substantive community. Not conversational or ephemeral community like you find online, but the kind of substantive community that engenders a network of mutual support. It's not the only way through life, but people naturally get momentum behind them when they can take on meaningful responsibilities towards others. Caring for a partner and kids is one way of taking on those kinds of responsibilities, but you're right that this isn't readily available to everyone. It never has been, really, but that can be especially apparent to people these days. Work can be another way, but it needs to feel like you're actually helping something in a way that matters, and many people don't have those opportunities for work either. Much work is towards notoriously bullshit ends, and plenty of employers and clients can be degrading rather than appreciative. But if you read your own post, or walk out your door and see your own neighbors, it's not hard to find people that need help. That's where the giant ocean of fulfillment is hiding in plain sight. Consumer-individualist culture just sort of forgot to teach people that, so one way to be practice it is to help people who need "a reason to go on" to find it in helping others themselves.
- prewett 2y ago
  I agree that we need real, substantive community. However, I'm skeptical of the helping-others-builds-community narrative. Shared service can create community, but to be sustainable the service is something that fills you up. I've done a lot of soup kitchen, helping at food banks, etc. work, and it's always been sort of a chore, despite doing it because of a strongly held value. Whereas I can spend a lot of time practicing beautiful choral music for a free concert and it's totally sustainable. Also, community is built among peers, but giving help is not necessarily a peer activity (depends on the help, how reciprocal the help is, pre-existing relationships, etc.). But helping "people that need help" is not the same as taking meaningful responsibilities. If I take "meaningful responsibilities" towards my neighbors, that's likely to look like co-dependency unless there's some sort of meaningful responsibilities I'm receiving back, or a community (in the social, not geographic/cartographic sense) that that we are already both part of. In fact, it's hard to take on meaningful responsibilities if you are not already a member of some community. (Which is not a bad thing; you don't usually make someone new the leader of the group, and there are good reasons for that)
- benterix 2y ago
  I would upvote you tenfold, if I could. Everybody needs to find some meaning in their lives. If there is none, you already know how it ends, and however you might try you will not change this ending. In the past, people would find this meaning in religion, but these days seem mostly gone. Finding things you like and doing them seems like a good strategy but not bulletproof. But being a part of a community and contributing to it may work miracles. You can really feel you can impact other people's lives in a concrete, meaningful way, and it can give much deeper satisfaction than a good game, movie or meal.
- chipdart 2y ago
  > FWIW, the missing element in this framing is real, substantive community. Not conversational or ephemeral community like you find online, but the kind of substantive community that engenders a network of mutual support. This is one aspect of US' stereotypical work culture that always caught my attention: the way that work permeates in employees' personal lives. Now I'm starting to see it the other way around: a lot of people simply do not have a social life, and work is used to fill that gap. That would also explain chronic overworking. Why would anyone want to leave their job at 5PM when all they can do is be alone with their lonely thoughts? At least back at work they have people who are contractually forced to acknowledge their existence. A few years ago someone told me a former team member of theirs committed suicide in the office, and was found the next day by other employees hanging from the ceiling. I couldn't understand why anyone would do such a thing, and specially at their workplace. Perhaps that was the only place they had in their lives and where they knew someone they knew would find them. Also a few years ago, when I switch jobs the first piece of office gossip I was told was how an employee tried to commit suicide by jumping off the building once he heard the news he was being fired. Your career in general and your job in particular plays a critical role in your life, but if that's all you have then you are an economic downturn away from finding yourself at the bottom of a very deep pit.
- jarbus 2y ago
  I agree, and lots of my irl efforts have actually been on building and improving community in my graduate program, and it’s been much more fulfilling than the actual research I’m doing. But as someone who is “the community guy” in their department, I’ve met a remarkable amount of indifference towards the idea of building community from people who just don’t value it. It’s really hard, especially in modern America, to find/build community. Remote work, lack of religion, inability to own a house, inability to have children, all make it harder than ever for others to find a reason to care about the people around them, I think.
archero 2y ago
Completely agree, and I have been feeling similarly. While I did manage to get a job, I have still been miserable. The work is not interesting or meaningful and working remotely is very isolating. It’s been discussed to death, but I think the lack of “third places” makes it very difficult to date or even spend time with friends. Like you mentioned, without a spouse or kids it’s hard to find purpose. I don’t have an intrinsic drive to grind or make more money just for the sake of it. I hope that things will get better with time, but I can’t think of any concrete reasons why they would. Of course some people will get married and have kids, but many won’t. It can be hard to find reasons to get up out of bed every day.
imranq 2y ago
The second point is really important I think - the internet has skewed our perceptions of what is real so much that it warps our own sense of worth. Also the demise of religious institutions have forced people to judge themselves by their contributions to the economy - which is a pretty bad game to play given how many winner-take-all markets there are. We need to teach students about well-being and when we have too much internet and not enough community.
barfbagginus 2y ago
[flagged]
- Manila7219 2y ago
  [flagged]
nozzlegear 2y ago
> I’ve moved past it for now, luckily, but I’m seeing a lot of people struggle, particularly men, and get left behind, with virtually nobody trying to make us feel valued or supported on the societal level. Many men, especially those without prospects for getting married/having kids, really don’t have a good reason to go on except pure hedonism. And that can only go so far. An honest question, not trying to start an argument: I wonder if you feel that men in particular are struggling because you don’t interact with women as often as you interact with men? Reading your main factors, it’s not hard to imagine women facing the same problems, especially in regard to the societal expectation of marriage/kids.
- jarbus 2y ago
  A fair question - as it turns out, I do interact with quite a few women. And while, yes, women face pressure to sacrifice family for a career (or vice versa), from what I understand, many women simply 1) Have a strong negative disposition to men/the idea of dating, 2) have their choice of men from dating apps, meaning they can date/start a family whenever/however they want, more or less, and 3) are either uninterested in giving birth, will "freeze their eggs" for whenever they decide to have a family, or are willing to adopt. This is not to say that women do not face hardships in the modern world (I know many who face sexism, assault, abortion rights, etc), however, I feel the nature of these problems are fundamentally different, particularly around their narratives and how they are supported. I think women feel more supported, empowered, righteous, and angry than ever when facing these issues (rightfully so), while men are increasingly ignored, devalued, and thrown away, without the explicit support that women typically receive in media, hiring practices, fellowships, etc. There are lots of tangible things for women to point to which indicate that their future is getting better (sans abortion rights in some states), while I think men have plenty of reason to suspect that things will only get worse from their perspective.
grobgambit 2y ago
I am old, the biggest difference from when I was 20 to now is when I was 20 I knew I wasn't going to be the star of my own TV sitcom. There is this constant barrage of bullshit now. "This 25year old makes $30k a month from a side hustle doing nothing and you can too!". Life is basically the best it is has ever been but the expectations that came with this are just absurd. If you think this tech job market is bad you can't imagine the dot com bust and 2002. Imagine graduating college in 2000 and starting the job hunt. Nasdaq returns by year 2000 -36.84 2001 -32.65 2002 -37.58 ----- 2022 -32.97 2023 +53.81

by jarbus 2y ago

swatcoder 2y ago

> Many men, especially those without prospects for getting married/having kids, really don’t have a good reason to go on except pure hedonism. And that can only go so far. FWIW, the missing element in this framing is real, substantive community. Not conversational or ephemeral community like you find online, but the kind of substantive community that engenders a network of mutual support. It's not the only way through life, but people naturally get momentum behind them when they can take on meaningful responsibilities towards others. Caring for a partner and kids is one way of taking on those kinds of responsibilities, but you're right that this isn't readily available to everyone. It never has been, really, but that can be especially apparent to people these days. Work can be another way, but it needs to feel like you're actually helping something in a way that matters, and many people don't have those opportunities for work either. Much work is towards notoriously bullshit ends, and plenty of employers and clients can be degrading rather than appreciative. But if you read your own post, or walk out your door and see your own neighbors, it's not hard to find people that need help. That's where the giant ocean of fulfillment is hiding in plain sight. Consumer-individualist culture just sort of forgot to teach people that, so one way to be practice it is to help people who need "a reason to go on" to find it in helping others themselves.

prewett 2y ago
I agree that we need real, substantive community. However, I'm skeptical of the helping-others-builds-community narrative. Shared service can create community, but to be sustainable the service is something that fills you up. I've done a lot of soup kitchen, helping at food banks, etc. work, and it's always been sort of a chore, despite doing it because of a strongly held value. Whereas I can spend a lot of time practicing beautiful choral music for a free concert and it's totally sustainable. Also, community is built among peers, but giving help is not necessarily a peer activity (depends on the help, how reciprocal the help is, pre-existing relationships, etc.). But helping "people that need help" is not the same as taking meaningful responsibilities. If I take "meaningful responsibilities" towards my neighbors, that's likely to look like co-dependency unless there's some sort of meaningful responsibilities I'm receiving back, or a community (in the social, not geographic/cartographic sense) that that we are already both part of. In fact, it's hard to take on meaningful responsibilities if you are not already a member of some community. (Which is not a bad thing; you don't usually make someone new the leader of the group, and there are good reasons for that)
benterix 2y ago
I would upvote you tenfold, if I could. Everybody needs to find some meaning in their lives. If there is none, you already know how it ends, and however you might try you will not change this ending. In the past, people would find this meaning in religion, but these days seem mostly gone. Finding things you like and doing them seems like a good strategy but not bulletproof. But being a part of a community and contributing to it may work miracles. You can really feel you can impact other people's lives in a concrete, meaningful way, and it can give much deeper satisfaction than a good game, movie or meal.
chipdart 2y ago
> FWIW, the missing element in this framing is real, substantive community. Not conversational or ephemeral community like you find online, but the kind of substantive community that engenders a network of mutual support. This is one aspect of US' stereotypical work culture that always caught my attention: the way that work permeates in employees' personal lives. Now I'm starting to see it the other way around: a lot of people simply do not have a social life, and work is used to fill that gap. That would also explain chronic overworking. Why would anyone want to leave their job at 5PM when all they can do is be alone with their lonely thoughts? At least back at work they have people who are contractually forced to acknowledge their existence. A few years ago someone told me a former team member of theirs committed suicide in the office, and was found the next day by other employees hanging from the ceiling. I couldn't understand why anyone would do such a thing, and specially at their workplace. Perhaps that was the only place they had in their lives and where they knew someone they knew would find them. Also a few years ago, when I switch jobs the first piece of office gossip I was told was how an employee tried to commit suicide by jumping off the building once he heard the news he was being fired. Your career in general and your job in particular plays a critical role in your life, but if that's all you have then you are an economic downturn away from finding yourself at the bottom of a very deep pit.
jarbus 2y ago
I agree, and lots of my irl efforts have actually been on building and improving community in my graduate program, and it’s been much more fulfilling than the actual research I’m doing. But as someone who is “the community guy” in their department, I’ve met a remarkable amount of indifference towards the idea of building community from people who just don’t value it. It’s really hard, especially in modern America, to find/build community. Remote work, lack of religion, inability to own a house, inability to have children, all make it harder than ever for others to find a reason to care about the people around them, I think.

archero 2y ago

Completely agree, and I have been feeling similarly. While I did manage to get a job, I have still been miserable. The work is not interesting or meaningful and working remotely is very isolating. It’s been discussed to death, but I think the lack of “third places” makes it very difficult to date or even spend time with friends. Like you mentioned, without a spouse or kids it’s hard to find purpose. I don’t have an intrinsic drive to grind or make more money just for the sake of it. I hope that things will get better with time, but I can’t think of any concrete reasons why they would. Of course some people will get married and have kids, but many won’t. It can be hard to find reasons to get up out of bed every day.

imranq 2y ago

The second point is really important I think - the internet has skewed our perceptions of what is real so much that it warps our own sense of worth. Also the demise of religious institutions have forced people to judge themselves by their contributions to the economy - which is a pretty bad game to play given how many winner-take-all markets there are. We need to teach students about well-being and when we have too much internet and not enough community.

barfbagginus 2y ago

[flagged]

Manila7219 2y ago
[flagged]

nozzlegear 2y ago

> I’ve moved past it for now, luckily, but I’m seeing a lot of people struggle, particularly men, and get left behind, with virtually nobody trying to make us feel valued or supported on the societal level. Many men, especially those without prospects for getting married/having kids, really don’t have a good reason to go on except pure hedonism. And that can only go so far. An honest question, not trying to start an argument: I wonder if you feel that men in particular are struggling because you don’t interact with women as often as you interact with men? Reading your main factors, it’s not hard to imagine women facing the same problems, especially in regard to the societal expectation of marriage/kids.

jarbus 2y ago
A fair question - as it turns out, I do interact with quite a few women. And while, yes, women face pressure to sacrifice family for a career (or vice versa), from what I understand, many women simply 1) Have a strong negative disposition to men/the idea of dating, 2) have their choice of men from dating apps, meaning they can date/start a family whenever/however they want, more or less, and 3) are either uninterested in giving birth, will "freeze their eggs" for whenever they decide to have a family, or are willing to adopt. This is not to say that women do not face hardships in the modern world (I know many who face sexism, assault, abortion rights, etc), however, I feel the nature of these problems are fundamentally different, particularly around their narratives and how they are supported. I think women feel more supported, empowered, righteous, and angry than ever when facing these issues (rightfully so), while men are increasingly ignored, devalued, and thrown away, without the explicit support that women typically receive in media, hiring practices, fellowships, etc. There are lots of tangible things for women to point to which indicate that their future is getting better (sans abortion rights in some states), while I think men have plenty of reason to suspect that things will only get worse from their perspective.

grobgambit 2y ago

I am old, the biggest difference from when I was 20 to now is when I was 20 I knew I wasn't going to be the star of my own TV sitcom. There is this constant barrage of bullshit now. "This 25year old makes $30k a month from a side hustle doing nothing and you can too!". Life is basically the best it is has ever been but the expectations that came with this are just absurd. If you think this tech job market is bad you can't imagine the dot com bust and 2002. Imagine graduating college in 2000 and starting the job hunt. Nasdaq returns by year 2000 -36.84 2001 -32.65 2002 -37.58 ----- 2022 -32.97 2023 +53.81