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The conclusions of this study - that musical open-mindedness drops off in the late twenties - is consistent with the fact that (pop) music creators also peak in

The conclusions of this study - that musical open-mindedness drops off in the late twenties - is consistent with the fact that (pop) music creators also peak in their twenties, with a rapid decline into creative insignificance afterwards. There's a lot of comforting analysis here on social and cultural development reasons why that might be, but the likely ugly truth is the same faced by creatives in some other areas - a clear cognitive decline, it's just too universal within those fields to be anything else than a physical cause. With very rare exceptions old people don't make good pop music, there's no reason to expect listeners to not mirror the decline.

longdog 3y ago
What are those other areas which display age-based creative decline? Other creative fields I can think of off the top of my head - scientific research, animation, fiction writing, architecture - are overwhelmingly dominated by older people. Even in pop music, I'd argue that artists are doing very little of the actual heavy lifting compared to the producers and the writers. Pop singers have a much shorter shelf life than producer/writers due to the importance of image in appealing to younger fans. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Martin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Martin for an example.
- mellosouls 3y ago
  Eg. Maths, physics, poetry. All dominated by the young, as pop music. Note that I'm talking about creative brilliance - ie the outlier contributors that define or excel in the forms - not workmanlike producers of commercial trustworthiness as in your example (though I would assume that generally the same trend holds). I said "some" because I'm aware that some fields (eg literature) do not follow the clear example in those.
dqh 3y ago
I suspect that it’s not cognitive decline, but that everyone is just too tired to make music.
BenFranklin100 3y ago
I think there is developmental biological factor, but how quickly you’ve leapt to cognitive decline betrays an underlying ageism. First, cognitive abilities don’t drop suddenly at the age of 30, and crystallized intelligence continues to grow for at least couple of decades past 30. Second, you need to square your conclusions with the fact that the average age for the best work by classical composers was 40 rather than 30, and this was in a period where health outcomes were much poorer. Further, writers, working in perhaps the most creatively demanding field of all, have their best work often in their 40s, 50s, and beyond. Need I mention the great painters of the last 500 years too? https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10400419.2016.1162489 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10400419.2016.11...
- mellosouls 3y ago
  how quickly you’ve leapt to cognitive decline betrays an underlying ageism This is a belief I've developed over years, I used to believe the same as everybody else - that social etc factors like raising kids got in the way. But its too universal within pop music (and I think some other fields mentioned in another comment) to be explained as anything but age-related cognitive decline - which by definition will be "ageist" if you want to resort to that sort of language.
  - BenFranklin100 3y ago
    If you sincerely believe people undergo a steep cognitive decline starting at the age of 30, at least you will have the comfort of a soft landing.
    - mellosouls 3y ago
      No, it starts earlier in outputs-manifestation when it comes to the outliers in some creative pursuits like those mentioned. Most people won't experience it in effect (in the end products of their creative output) as most people aren't outliers producing brilliant work.
trimethylpurine 3y ago
Pop songs are typically written by songwriters who are much older than the performer. I'm estimating, but that's probably true of most pop songs in the top 100 history. Maybe someone has the stats on that.
082349872349872 3y ago
> (pop) music creators also peak in their twenties, with a rapid decline into creative insignificance afterwards. Die Toten Hosen and Leningrad would like to have a word. If you're reliant on the machine, then of course you'll suffer "creative insignificance" once the machine ceases to have a use for you. compare "New Kid in Town" (1976)
- mellosouls 3y ago
  Like I also said, there are very rare exceptions.

longdog 3y ago

What are those other areas which display age-based creative decline? Other creative fields I can think of off the top of my head - scientific research, animation, fiction writing, architecture - are overwhelmingly dominated by older people. Even in pop music, I'd argue that artists are doing very little of the actual heavy lifting compared to the producers and the writers. Pop singers have a much shorter shelf life than producer/writers due to the importance of image in appealing to younger fans. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Martin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Martin for an example.

mellosouls 3y ago
Eg. Maths, physics, poetry. All dominated by the young, as pop music. Note that I'm talking about creative brilliance - ie the outlier contributors that define or excel in the forms - not workmanlike producers of commercial trustworthiness as in your example (though I would assume that generally the same trend holds). I said "some" because I'm aware that some fields (eg literature) do not follow the clear example in those.

dqh 3y ago

I suspect that it’s not cognitive decline, but that everyone is just too tired to make music.

BenFranklin100 3y ago

I think there is developmental biological factor, but how quickly you’ve leapt to cognitive decline betrays an underlying ageism. First, cognitive abilities don’t drop suddenly at the age of 30, and crystallized intelligence continues to grow for at least couple of decades past 30. Second, you need to square your conclusions with the fact that the average age for the best work by classical composers was 40 rather than 30, and this was in a period where health outcomes were much poorer. Further, writers, working in perhaps the most creatively demanding field of all, have their best work often in their 40s, 50s, and beyond. Need I mention the great painters of the last 500 years too? https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10400419.2016.1162489 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10400419.2016.11...

mellosouls 3y ago
how quickly you’ve leapt to cognitive decline betrays an underlying ageism This is a belief I've developed over years, I used to believe the same as everybody else - that social etc factors like raising kids got in the way. But its too universal within pop music (and I think some other fields mentioned in another comment) to be explained as anything but age-related cognitive decline - which by definition will be "ageist" if you want to resort to that sort of language.
- BenFranklin100 3y ago
  If you sincerely believe people undergo a steep cognitive decline starting at the age of 30, at least you will have the comfort of a soft landing.
  - mellosouls 3y ago
    No, it starts earlier in outputs-manifestation when it comes to the outliers in some creative pursuits like those mentioned. Most people won't experience it in effect (in the end products of their creative output) as most people aren't outliers producing brilliant work.

trimethylpurine 3y ago

Pop songs are typically written by songwriters who are much older than the performer. I'm estimating, but that's probably true of most pop songs in the top 100 history. Maybe someone has the stats on that.

082349872349872 3y ago

> (pop) music creators also peak in their twenties, with a rapid decline into creative insignificance afterwards. Die Toten Hosen and Leningrad would like to have a word. If you're reliant on the machine, then of course you'll suffer "creative insignificance" once the machine ceases to have a use for you. compare "New Kid in Town" (1976)

mellosouls 3y ago
Like I also said, there are very rare exceptions.