4 ms·

> How about: you must issue cash refunds PERIOD. No voucher nonsense. From https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/biden-harris-administration-announces-f

by mulmen 3y ago

> How about: you must issue cash refunds PERIOD. No voucher nonsense. From https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/biden-harris-administration-announces-final-rule-requiring-automatic-refunds-airline https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/biden-harris-ad... (linked in TFA): The final rule improves the passenger experience by requiring refunds to be: Automatic: Airlines must automatically issue refunds without passengers having to explicitly request them or jump through hoops. Prompt: Airlines and ticket agents must issue refunds within seven business days of refunds becoming due for credit card purchases and 20 calendar days for other payment methods. Cash or original form of payment: Airlines and ticket agents must provide refunds in cash or whatever original payment method the individual used to make the purchase, such as credit card or airline miles. Airlines may not substitute vouchers, travel credits, or other forms of compensation unless the passenger affirmatively chooses to accept alternative compensation. Full amount: Airlines and ticket agents must provide full refunds of the ticket purchase price, minus the value of any portion of transportation already used. The refunds must include all government-imposed taxes and fees and airline-imposed fees, regardless of whether the taxes or fees are refundable to airlines.

judge2020 3y ago
I wonder how the taxes and fees refund works. Fees I can see airlines trying to say “we already paid these”, but taxes are only charged on services rendered, no? Is there a situation where the airlines have already paid sales tax to the local authority and don’t get a refund for canceled service?
- praseodym 3y ago
  There are also government-imposed taxes such as the U.S. Transportation Security Administration instituted Passenger Fee, which is charged as soon as the ticket is bought: > "The fee is collected by air carriers from passengers at the time air transportation is purchased," according to TSA. "Air carriers then remit the fees to TSA." (From https://thepointsguy.com/guide/taxes-and-fees-airline-award-tickets/ https://thepointsguy.com/guide/taxes-and-fees-airline-award-...)
  - BobaFloutist 3y ago
    Of course it's charged as soon as the ticket is bought, no airline is selling a ticket then coming back later to collect taxes. The quote you provided only says "Air carriers then remit the fees to TSA.", it doesn't say when that happens.
- figassis 3y ago
  Well, refund everything. A delay is them not doing their job right, as promised. There should be a cost to that, and if they are forced to refund 100%, maybe delays/cancellations will be fewer. The cost to the customer is usually more than the price of the flight. Maybe they are late to another flight and since that will be their "fault" they will not be refunded. Maybe they miss a job interview, etc. Life isn't fair and what is owed is owed. In fact, they have such great legal and accounting armies that I'm sure they can claw back those taxes from the IRS.
  - HelloMcFly 3y ago
    > A delay is them not doing their job right, as promised. I am anti-airline here, I am loving where we are going with these things. But I don't agree with this: many delays happen precisely because they are doing their jobs right. This could be weather-related delays, observed mechanical issues, unexpected crew illnesses (note the plural), etc. And over the course of a day, these issues compound. I think the government should refund the airlines the government taxes/fees for canceled/delayed flights due to weather or mechanical issues at least.
    - Vaslo 3y ago
      I’m with you. Telling airlines they need to refund due to weather or bad mechanics just invites them to take more risks.
    - BobaFloutist 3y ago
      I don't think they're paying taxes at the time the ticket is purchased. I'm very sure they're not paying taxes on cancelled flights, as long as they're refunding the principle. How often do you think airlines are filing taxes?
      - HelloMcFly 3y ago
        I am responding to this: > The refunds must include all government-imposed taxes and fees and airline-imposed fees, regardless of whether the taxes or fees are refundable to airlines. This is the provision I am responding to. If the airlines must refund the full value to the consumer, I do not see why the government should not also be refunding the airlines. And I strongly contest the idea that any delay is a problem the airline themselves created. In fact, I believe the assertion is absolutely dead wrong. There are many externalities to on-time arrivals and departures that airlines cannot control. How could it possibly be an airline's fault if an airport hasn't cleared its runways of ice, or if a tornado is within 5 miles of the landing strip? Of course I also believe airlines will disingenously attribute delayed departures to these externalities if able to, even if they are actually at fault, so I'm not sure what the "right" solution is here.
- Sakos 3y ago
  https://www.marketplace.org/2021/07/08/didnt-use-your-airline-ticket-why-its-hard-to-get-taxes-and-fees-back/ https://www.marketplace.org/2021/07/08/didnt-use-your-airlin... Sounds complicated.
- bux93 3y ago
  This is somehow not an issue for any other business, so they'll figure it out.
- tzs 3y ago
  Nearly every government handles things like sales taxes quarterly. Each quarter the merchant submits a report to the government showing the sales and the tax collected in the previous quarter and sends that collected tax to the government. The due date for submitting the previous quarter’s taxes will generally be late enough that the merchant can wait until most items or services sold at the end of the previous quarter have been delivered or performed. If you have to refund a customer after you have submitted your taxes you can take the amount of tax that was included in the refund as a credit the next time you file with with the government.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > I wonder how the taxes and fees refund works. Fees I can see airlines trying to say “we already paid these”, but taxes are only charged on services rendered, no? Is there a situation where the airlines have already paid sales tax to the local authority and don’t get a refund for canceled service? Whether or not the taxes or fees are eligible for a refund to the airline (or don't have to be paid; payment of those will often be delayed) depends on the specific law applicable to each tax or fee, but with the new rule, that's the airline’s issue—they have to refund it to the customer whether or not the airline is still on the hook for it.
phone8675309 3y ago
> Airlines and ticket agents must issue refunds within seven business days of refunds becoming due for credit card purchases Always blows my mind that companies can take money _instantly_ from my credit card yet require 3-7 business days to refund it. I know what you're doing you greedy fucks.
- devmor 3y ago
  This doesn’t change the premise of your argument but to clear up your understanding - no one is able to instantly take payments from your credit card. Your credit card company records the transaction as having taken place long before any money actually moves. They are far more cautious about giving leeway on the conduct of the consumer than that of the merchant. 3-7 business days gives the merchant’s bank long enough to debit the funds, ensure they exist, then send them back, with a buffer for errors.
  - gordonfish 3y ago
    Why does that require so many days? Banking is all digital, yet it is still being treated like it's the 1950s.
    - devmor 3y ago
      Well, the good news is that the Fed recently rolled out the first phase of a replacement ACH system (FedNow) that does instant transfers. The bad news is that it will be decades before most major payment systems move to it. I haven’t worked in fintech long enough to tell you why it was modeled to take so long, but I would hazard a guess that it’s because the primary method of moving money was paper checks and physical card impressions until the last couple decades.

by mulmen 3y ago

judge2020 3y ago

I wonder how the taxes and fees refund works. Fees I can see airlines trying to say “we already paid these”, but taxes are only charged on services rendered, no? Is there a situation where the airlines have already paid sales tax to the local authority and don’t get a refund for canceled service?

praseodym 3y ago
There are also government-imposed taxes such as the U.S. Transportation Security Administration instituted Passenger Fee, which is charged as soon as the ticket is bought: > "The fee is collected by air carriers from passengers at the time air transportation is purchased," according to TSA. "Air carriers then remit the fees to TSA." (From https://thepointsguy.com/guide/taxes-and-fees-airline-award-tickets/ https://thepointsguy.com/guide/taxes-and-fees-airline-award-...)
- BobaFloutist 3y ago
  Of course it's charged as soon as the ticket is bought, no airline is selling a ticket then coming back later to collect taxes. The quote you provided only says "Air carriers then remit the fees to TSA.", it doesn't say when that happens.
figassis 3y ago
Well, refund everything. A delay is them not doing their job right, as promised. There should be a cost to that, and if they are forced to refund 100%, maybe delays/cancellations will be fewer. The cost to the customer is usually more than the price of the flight. Maybe they are late to another flight and since that will be their "fault" they will not be refunded. Maybe they miss a job interview, etc. Life isn't fair and what is owed is owed. In fact, they have such great legal and accounting armies that I'm sure they can claw back those taxes from the IRS.
- HelloMcFly 3y ago
  > A delay is them not doing their job right, as promised. I am anti-airline here, I am loving where we are going with these things. But I don't agree with this: many delays happen precisely because they are doing their jobs right. This could be weather-related delays, observed mechanical issues, unexpected crew illnesses (note the plural), etc. And over the course of a day, these issues compound. I think the government should refund the airlines the government taxes/fees for canceled/delayed flights due to weather or mechanical issues at least.
  - Vaslo 3y ago
    I’m with you. Telling airlines they need to refund due to weather or bad mechanics just invites them to take more risks.
  - BobaFloutist 3y ago
    I don't think they're paying taxes at the time the ticket is purchased. I'm very sure they're not paying taxes on cancelled flights, as long as they're refunding the principle. How often do you think airlines are filing taxes?
    - HelloMcFly 3y ago
      I am responding to this: > The refunds must include all government-imposed taxes and fees and airline-imposed fees, regardless of whether the taxes or fees are refundable to airlines. This is the provision I am responding to. If the airlines must refund the full value to the consumer, I do not see why the government should not also be refunding the airlines. And I strongly contest the idea that any delay is a problem the airline themselves created. In fact, I believe the assertion is absolutely dead wrong. There are many externalities to on-time arrivals and departures that airlines cannot control. How could it possibly be an airline's fault if an airport hasn't cleared its runways of ice, or if a tornado is within 5 miles of the landing strip? Of course I also believe airlines will disingenously attribute delayed departures to these externalities if able to, even if they are actually at fault, so I'm not sure what the "right" solution is here.
Sakos 3y ago
https://www.marketplace.org/2021/07/08/didnt-use-your-airline-ticket-why-its-hard-to-get-taxes-and-fees-back/ https://www.marketplace.org/2021/07/08/didnt-use-your-airlin... Sounds complicated.
bux93 3y ago
This is somehow not an issue for any other business, so they'll figure it out.
tzs 3y ago
Nearly every government handles things like sales taxes quarterly. Each quarter the merchant submits a report to the government showing the sales and the tax collected in the previous quarter and sends that collected tax to the government. The due date for submitting the previous quarter’s taxes will generally be late enough that the merchant can wait until most items or services sold at the end of the previous quarter have been delivered or performed. If you have to refund a customer after you have submitted your taxes you can take the amount of tax that was included in the refund as a credit the next time you file with with the government.
dragonwriter 3y ago
> I wonder how the taxes and fees refund works. Fees I can see airlines trying to say “we already paid these”, but taxes are only charged on services rendered, no? Is there a situation where the airlines have already paid sales tax to the local authority and don’t get a refund for canceled service? Whether or not the taxes or fees are eligible for a refund to the airline (or don't have to be paid; payment of those will often be delayed) depends on the specific law applicable to each tax or fee, but with the new rule, that's the airline’s issue—they have to refund it to the customer whether or not the airline is still on the hook for it.

phone8675309 3y ago

> Airlines and ticket agents must issue refunds within seven business days of refunds becoming due for credit card purchases Always blows my mind that companies can take money _instantly_ from my credit card yet require 3-7 business days to refund it. I know what you're doing you greedy fucks.

devmor 3y ago
This doesn’t change the premise of your argument but to clear up your understanding - no one is able to instantly take payments from your credit card. Your credit card company records the transaction as having taken place long before any money actually moves. They are far more cautious about giving leeway on the conduct of the consumer than that of the merchant. 3-7 business days gives the merchant’s bank long enough to debit the funds, ensure they exist, then send them back, with a buffer for errors.
- gordonfish 3y ago
  Why does that require so many days? Banking is all digital, yet it is still being treated like it's the 1950s.
  - devmor 3y ago
    Well, the good news is that the Fed recently rolled out the first phase of a replacement ACH system (FedNow) that does instant transfers. The bad news is that it will be decades before most major payment systems move to it. I haven’t worked in fintech long enough to tell you why it was modeled to take so long, but I would hazard a guess that it’s because the primary method of moving money was paper checks and physical card impressions until the last couple decades.