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The US bans TikTok citing the same reasons China bans foreign social media, to avoid influence from foreign adversaries (people below says that China never offi

The US bans TikTok citing the same reasons China bans foreign social media, to avoid influence from foreign adversaries (people below says that China never official bans it, but China is inconsistent on that). It is only fair from a business perspective, but it also means that China's ideology wins over American in the end. The China's own social media is full of posts ridiculing people like me who have believed in the American ideology, espoused the virtues of freedom of speech and rallied against the GFW. They call us naive and credulous. And I can't refute them. When I was young, I was taught in China that China lost its superpower status after it chose to isolate itself from the rest of the world. And then it isolated itself. I was taught by the US the importance of freedom of speech. Then it ditched it. My education was a lie.

robot_no_421 2y ago
This is a really poor argument. You are equating banning one social media app with the GFW, which is obviously a huge hyperbole which has nothing to do with reality. The Great Firewall operates by checking transmission control protocol (TCP) packets for keywords or sensitive words. That is a violation of freedom of thought at the infrastructure level. As an American, you are still free to visit Chinese hosted websites and drink whatever propaganda you want. You just can't use TikTok to find it anymore. Plus, freedom of speech is about protecting American Citizens from being censored by American Government. Banning an ungovernable, foreign owned business does not stop you from freely expressing yourself on the internet. Your education was not a lie, but you should still get a refund on your failed education. You clearly did not learn to think critically.
- bdd8f1df777b 2y ago
  Say what you will, but I won't be able to espouse the virtues of freedom of speech in China anymore. The distinction you make isn't going to convince any one.
  - starfallg 2y ago
    Nothing you can't do before has been affected, given that you were never able to post anything on TikTok that would be seen in China. It is not accessible in China, as Bytedance only operates Douyin there. The two systems are completely separate content-wise.
    - bdd8f1df777b 2y ago
      You misunderstood me. I was not talking about doing on TikTok, but on China's own social media and when conversing with other Chinese offline.
      - starfallg 2y ago
        I don't follow your argument. In what way are you affected now and why? My understanding is that 1. You moved from China to the US yourself willing since some time ago and 2. There is no US equivalent of the GFW and this legislation doesn't change that. I just don't see how this law will affect your ability to converse with others on Chinese social media.
        bdd8f1df777b 2y ago
        OK, let me reword. I still can converse with others on Chinese social media, but I will have a harder time convincing them that GFW is a bad idea or that the China's government is wrong restricting speech. Because people not already convinced will point to the US banning TikTok and ask me how China's actions are different. The distinction between the two is subtle, and frankly, while the US actions do not violate the First Amendment, it does breach the underlying principles. I have no convincing argument for them.
        starfallg 2y ago
        Ok, that's more clear on what your point is. The US is not banning TikTok technically like the GFW, they are just de-platforming it so it is no longer commercially active. This is very different from the GFW, and many orders of magnitude less restrictive. This issue isn't about speech and censorship, but media ownership. These rules has always been in place in many Western countries precisely because of the impact it has on society (even beyond geopolitics).
- tenlp 2y ago
  >Plus, freedom of speech is about protecting American Citizens from being censored by American Government. Banning an ungovernable, foreign owned business does not stop you from freely expressing yourself on the internet. As far as I know, tiktok's services are deployed on Oracle servers in the United States and are subject to supervision. It was banned just because it comes from China. Look how many times the CEO of Singapore was questioned if he is Chinese. Maybe the Congressman thinks Singapore is also a part of China.
  - coin 2y ago
    > Look how many times the CEO of Singapore was questioned if he is Chinese. Maybe the Congressman thinks Singapore is also a part of China. 74% of Singaporeans are ethnically Chinese. The Congressman's questions are not unreasonable in questioning if the CEO has some ties with mainland China.
- bdd8f1df777b 2y ago
  > Your education was not a lie, but you should still get a refund on your failed education. You clearly did not learn to think critically. I read both Chinese and English, and I read both the opinions of within GFW and without. If anything, I've critically analyzed every idea from both sides. I can't fathom the hubris of someone who has ever lived on one side yet believes his truth is the ultimate truth and anyone disagreeing must not be thinking critically.
  - NicoJuicy 2y ago
    China is preparing a wat with Taiwan, just see it's military buildup the last year's. It's ignoring international laws with neighbors, instead of using weapons, it's using water cannons against fishers and Philippines coast guard. China is a "friend without limits" of Russia, who started a war on European soil lately. I think it's safe to say that the west is decoupling from China. It has nothing to do with "freedom of speech", most voters agree with that decoupling. I have never heard of a pro China argument before from a politician party and it seems that most democracies nearby China think the same, even with the BRI initiative. ( Note: I'm not from the US)
    - bdd8f1df777b 2y ago
      I'm not debating that China is bad or not, or if it is an adversary to the US. My deeply held belief is that we should allow speech from even the most hostile foreign countries. Do you know that every administration of China, starting from Qing Dynasty, resisted the idea of freedom and democracy by painting them as plots of foreign governments to destabilize China? I am being called a sock puppet of China here, and I have been accused of being agents of US propaganda in China. That is how the future holds. Every thought deviating from mainstream is labelled as propaganda from a foreign government, ergo not subject to the protections of freedom of speech.
      - NicoJuicy 2y ago
        I'm not calling you a sock puppet of China here, your username indicated a Chinese background though. The tracking/propaganda dangers of TikTok are unrelated to freedom of speech, as banning TikTok doesn't affect freedom of speech. People can spread their opinion on any other app. Note : I'm responding and sharing my opinion for the following you mentioned: > The China's own social media is full of posts ridiculing people like me who have believed in the American ideology, espoused the virtues of freedom of speech and rallied against the GFW. They call us naive and credulous. And I can't refute them.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
csa 2y ago
Next level sock puppetry!
- bdd8f1df777b 2y ago
  I was called a US sock puppet on Chinese social media and then a Chinese sock puppet here. I guess people everywhere are the same, doing ad hominem attacks whenever they see people having an opposite opinion.
throwawayq3423 2y ago
> China's ideology wins over American in the end. Influence operations aren't about "winning" or even convincing anyone anymore. It's about flooding peoples screens with untold amounts of toxic garbage.

robot_no_421 2y ago

This is a really poor argument. You are equating banning one social media app with the GFW, which is obviously a huge hyperbole which has nothing to do with reality. The Great Firewall operates by checking transmission control protocol (TCP) packets for keywords or sensitive words. That is a violation of freedom of thought at the infrastructure level. As an American, you are still free to visit Chinese hosted websites and drink whatever propaganda you want. You just can't use TikTok to find it anymore. Plus, freedom of speech is about protecting American Citizens from being censored by American Government. Banning an ungovernable, foreign owned business does not stop you from freely expressing yourself on the internet. Your education was not a lie, but you should still get a refund on your failed education. You clearly did not learn to think critically.

bdd8f1df777b 2y ago
Say what you will, but I won't be able to espouse the virtues of freedom of speech in China anymore. The distinction you make isn't going to convince any one.
- starfallg 2y ago
  Nothing you can't do before has been affected, given that you were never able to post anything on TikTok that would be seen in China. It is not accessible in China, as Bytedance only operates Douyin there. The two systems are completely separate content-wise.
  - bdd8f1df777b 2y ago
    You misunderstood me. I was not talking about doing on TikTok, but on China's own social media and when conversing with other Chinese offline.
    - starfallg 2y ago
      I don't follow your argument. In what way are you affected now and why? My understanding is that 1. You moved from China to the US yourself willing since some time ago and 2. There is no US equivalent of the GFW and this legislation doesn't change that. I just don't see how this law will affect your ability to converse with others on Chinese social media.
      - bdd8f1df777b 2y ago
        OK, let me reword. I still can converse with others on Chinese social media, but I will have a harder time convincing them that GFW is a bad idea or that the China's government is wrong restricting speech. Because people not already convinced will point to the US banning TikTok and ask me how China's actions are different. The distinction between the two is subtle, and frankly, while the US actions do not violate the First Amendment, it does breach the underlying principles. I have no convincing argument for them.
        starfallg 2y ago
        Ok, that's more clear on what your point is. The US is not banning TikTok technically like the GFW, they are just de-platforming it so it is no longer commercially active. This is very different from the GFW, and many orders of magnitude less restrictive. This issue isn't about speech and censorship, but media ownership. These rules has always been in place in many Western countries precisely because of the impact it has on society (even beyond geopolitics).
tenlp 2y ago
>Plus, freedom of speech is about protecting American Citizens from being censored by American Government. Banning an ungovernable, foreign owned business does not stop you from freely expressing yourself on the internet. As far as I know, tiktok's services are deployed on Oracle servers in the United States and are subject to supervision. It was banned just because it comes from China. Look how many times the CEO of Singapore was questioned if he is Chinese. Maybe the Congressman thinks Singapore is also a part of China.
- coin 2y ago
  > Look how many times the CEO of Singapore was questioned if he is Chinese. Maybe the Congressman thinks Singapore is also a part of China. 74% of Singaporeans are ethnically Chinese. The Congressman's questions are not unreasonable in questioning if the CEO has some ties with mainland China.
bdd8f1df777b 2y ago
> Your education was not a lie, but you should still get a refund on your failed education. You clearly did not learn to think critically. I read both Chinese and English, and I read both the opinions of within GFW and without. If anything, I've critically analyzed every idea from both sides. I can't fathom the hubris of someone who has ever lived on one side yet believes his truth is the ultimate truth and anyone disagreeing must not be thinking critically.
- NicoJuicy 2y ago
  China is preparing a wat with Taiwan, just see it's military buildup the last year's. It's ignoring international laws with neighbors, instead of using weapons, it's using water cannons against fishers and Philippines coast guard. China is a "friend without limits" of Russia, who started a war on European soil lately. I think it's safe to say that the west is decoupling from China. It has nothing to do with "freedom of speech", most voters agree with that decoupling. I have never heard of a pro China argument before from a politician party and it seems that most democracies nearby China think the same, even with the BRI initiative. ( Note: I'm not from the US)
  - bdd8f1df777b 2y ago
    I'm not debating that China is bad or not, or if it is an adversary to the US. My deeply held belief is that we should allow speech from even the most hostile foreign countries. Do you know that every administration of China, starting from Qing Dynasty, resisted the idea of freedom and democracy by painting them as plots of foreign governments to destabilize China? I am being called a sock puppet of China here, and I have been accused of being agents of US propaganda in China. That is how the future holds. Every thought deviating from mainstream is labelled as propaganda from a foreign government, ergo not subject to the protections of freedom of speech.
    - NicoJuicy 2y ago
      I'm not calling you a sock puppet of China here, your username indicated a Chinese background though. The tracking/propaganda dangers of TikTok are unrelated to freedom of speech, as banning TikTok doesn't affect freedom of speech. People can spread their opinion on any other app. Note : I'm responding and sharing my opinion for the following you mentioned: > The China's own social media is full of posts ridiculing people like me who have believed in the American ideology, espoused the virtues of freedom of speech and rallied against the GFW. They call us naive and credulous. And I can't refute them.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

csa 2y ago

Next level sock puppetry!

bdd8f1df777b 2y ago
I was called a US sock puppet on Chinese social media and then a Chinese sock puppet here. I guess people everywhere are the same, doing ad hominem attacks whenever they see people having an opposite opinion.

throwawayq3423 2y ago

> China's ideology wins over American in the end. Influence operations aren't about "winning" or even convincing anyone anymore. It's about flooding peoples screens with untold amounts of toxic garbage.