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Linus Torvalds on the Google vs Oracle verdict
- gouranga 14y agoHaving dealt with Oracle, it won't happen like that. Oracle will throw marketing and lawyers around to hide as much of their failure as possible by threatening other vendors and any dissident opinion. Oracle has a suitably large reality distortion field.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- einhverfr 14y agoI am having trouble seeing the difference between your opinion and that of Linux, to be honest.
- huhtenberg 14y ago*Linus
- ionforce 14y agoCan Linus ever not sound like a pompous jackass?
- novalis 14y agoI think so ionforce, you are just projecting heavily. I seen a 60 minutes piece with him and in it, he sounded perfectly reasonable.
- koeselitz 14y agoI wouldn't call it 'projection' necessarily. Linus Torvalds can seem like a pompous jackass sometimes, it's true. But it's useful to keep in mind the context of this comment of his. Linus is a guy who spent many, many years fighting an unusually and unnecessarily difficult battle to prevent something he created from being coopted and stolen by a copyright troll, SCO. So this is somewhat personal for him.
- B-Con 14y agoHe speaks very reasonably, it's just his writing style. I think he's one of those people who's choice of written word does not always convey the tone they would have conveyed in person. And, to be fair, he does intentionally say things in an over-the-top way to be funny, although such statements pretty much always have an element of truth.
- re_todd 14y agoGood point. I took a course on business communication, and remember learning that tone is often lost in writing. You may send an email to someone in a friendly, playful mood, but it can come across as sarcastic and/or rude to the recipient.
- trentmb 14y agoOf course he would, he's in person. It's easier to be mean on the internet than in person. Not to mention no one has perfected punching someone through the internet.
- ktizo 14y agono one has perfected punching someone through the internet I can see serious problems in the design and certification stages, but the marketing should be extremely easy.
- willvarfar 14y agohe made `git blame`
- runjake 14y agoFrom the little I do know about Linus, I think it's less pomp and more a mix of some ratio between his style of playful, tongue-in-cheek impishness and anger depending on what kind of day he's having. He's a pretty nice fellow for the most part.
- bradwestness 14y agoHe's also constantly inundated with arguments/accusations/requests from idiots. If you ever read through some of his Linux newsletter arguments, you can see why he'd develop a take-no-prisoners style of communicating.
- sophacles 14y agoHe could take the killfile approach to lkml... of course that would get him just as much hate. It's really a lose-lose situation, no good way of getting people to stop with the "im right and won't stop pestering you even though it's your project" stuff without pissing off one half of the internet or the other. The oddest thing is, as I read random lkml threads that interest me, it seems that Linus isn't a jerk immediately when people bring up stuff - even well hashed stuff. When he is wrong, he admits it, and seems reasonable about patches that aren't perfect/up to snuff, particularly from newer devs who are trying to do well. It's when the threads go on and on that it seems to degrade. (or when a topic that is famous for being a no-go is brought up... but i think it's fair to at least understand the thing you are trying to contribute to, particularly as well documented as linux).
- Danieru 14y agoTo illustrate the point here is a 'complex' email from him on the 16th: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/5/19/97 https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/5/19/97 Now here is him on an un-related issue apologising: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/5/21/230 https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/5/21/230 For linus the github 'discussion' was an everyday thing. He speaks his mind and will apologise if he is wrong, such is the order of the day on the kernel mailing list.
- DanBC 14y agoThere may be cultural factors at work here. In England when you say "Hello! How are you?" the answer is almost always "Very well thanks, how about you?", even if the person is not very well. This is considered polite. Other countries find this odd, and consider it lying. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13545386 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13545386)
- pjmlp 14y agoIn Portugal it is the same. People don't really want to know the details how you feel, it is just a way of greeting.
- arethuza 14y agoI remember going in for a surgical procedure a few years back and just before the operation a non-British doctor told me "This is really going to hurt" - I was expecting "There may be some slight discomfort", which is the usual British way of saying "This is REALLY going to hurt". I was quite concerned (i.e. British for "terrified") until they gave me the pre-med Valium. And yes, it did sting a bit.
- jdhzzz 14y agoMy grandmother would say: "How are you (not that I give a damn)?".
- zdw 14y agoLinus is a bit brusque on a regular basis. Many people in OS design/development tend to be that way (Theo DeRaadt being another). It's less of someone being a jerk, and more of them being direct and to the point, coupled with a large degree of cynicism.
- a3d6g2f7 14y agoAnd I will take that, if coupled with demonstrated competence and a solid, sensible vision, over being "nice", "accomodating" and "willing to answer questions", every time. This attitude is not true of all OS developers, though. There are lots who are really even-tempered. But they are also very focused and not necessarily willing to accomodate everyone with a "bright idea". While it might make the learning curve a bit steeper for mere mortals, I actually believe this is what makes a better OS. I would be interested to see a "Linux" where Torvalds also controlled the userland. What would it be like?
- excuse-me 14y agoYou are looking for a quicker, shorter, terser version of the unix commandline ?
- a3d6g2f7 14y agoVersion? Not sure what you mean. Some other way to interact with the kernel, besides a "shell"? Quicker, shorter, terser sounds good to me, whatever it is. Or maybe you mean if he wrote his own shell?
- excuse-me 14y ago< humor explain=verbose > The parent post said that Linus' writing was extremely terse and "to the point" and what would happen if Linux wrote the userspace. The joke was that Unix's typical user interface, the shell, isn't exactly overflowing with unecessary verbose "fluff"
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- Jach 14y agoRead his family blog, or even better emails on the Linux kernel mailing list, since he's sent quite a lot over the years. Apart from when he calls out someone for being stupid and ugly, he sounds very nice. You'll find many instances where he sounds neither pompous nor mean.
- rdtsc 14y agoI can accept one's arrogance and lack of social grace being proportional to their contribution. So Linus in my book can be a total jackass and it would probably still be ok. In reality I think he is just direct and says exactly what he means.
- tsurantino 14y agoI'm more astounded by the fact that Linus is on a social networking site like Google+. I'm really hoping he makes a Twitter account for his rant-I mean comments :D
- bradwestness 14y agoGoogle+ seems to have been adopted by a lot of major players in the tech industry. Quite a few notable people post on it pretty regularly, possibly because it's hard to effectively tweet about technology issues in 140 characters. I'd probably switch to it exclusively too if I could use it to export to Twitter and Facebook.
- duaneb 14y agoWhat's the point of exporting it to twitter/facebook?
- eclark 14y agoLots of people who are not early adopters are still on FB and won't move for quite a while.
- AndrewDucker 14y agoYou don't need to move. You can got to _two_ websites.
- desas 14y agoAnd read the same things twice?
- kristianc 14y ago>> When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is an idiotic thing to say; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." [1] HN's own style guide has sound advice for how Linus might shorten his posts to under 140 characters. [1] http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- EternalFury 14y agoOracle could pull all resources dedicated to the development of Java. Burn the forest to get the Google tree. Drastic and unrealistic, but Ellison doesn't like to lose.
- excuse-me 14y agoResulting in an improvement in Java for everyone C/C++ doesn't seem to have done too badly since Bell labs stopped developing it!
- huhtenberg 14y ago> C/C++ doesn't seem to have done too badly since Bell labs stopped developing it! I wouldn't be so sure about the C++ part ;)
- ConstantineXVI 14y agoKeep in mind this started because Google built their own Java implementation from scratch instead of working from the JDK. That said... a) Java customers tend to also use Oracle DB and Solaris, two other big Oracle products. Revenge on Google can't be worth giving up owning the full stack. b) Google (perhaps with IBM and Red Hat) would be absolutely delighted to pick up Java development were Oracle to stop working on it; quite the opposite of what Oracle would hope to accomplish.
- DigitalSea 14y agoI don't really care what Linus has to say on the Google vs Oracle verdict, a guy who created one of the worlds most useful operating systems that he doesn't even really contribute to any more who would rather sit on his computer all day ranting about Github's implementation of Git, rant about Linux becoming bloated and now ranting about the Google vs Oracle case. I get Torvalds is a genius, but with the ending line in his G+ post, "Sometimes I really wish I wasn't always right. It's a curse, I tell you." it sounds like all of those caffeine fuelled late nights have deprived him of vital nutrients, he's nuts nowadays. I realise everything I just said is a rant, I'm a hypocrite at times. Side note: anyone else think Linus looks a bit like Nicholas Cage in his Google Plus profile picture?
- pyre 14y agoI took his last statement as sarcasm with a hint of hubris.
- lobo_tuerto 14y agoOr maybe he is just right. Or can you point otherwise?
- DigitalSea 14y agoHe was the one who said he was right, shouldn't Linus be backing up his statements and proving why he thinks he is right instead of the other way around? Haha.
- sophacles 14y agoI'm not sure why you think Linus doesn't really contribute to his operating system anymore. He doesn't really write code, but that's because he's become too busy as a project manager for it - which is a different sort of contribution. Not sure what about this makes you so angry... Anyway, at least he earned his right to rant about git and linux, I mean, he sort of created them. And regarding Google v Oracle, he is a stakeholder in the verdict - if APIs are copyrightable, there will be people filing suits against linux on the way out of the courtroom. What did you do to earn your right to rant?
- losethos 14y agoThe nurses made this. WTF! You're gonna pay, morons. What the fuck are you thinhking!! Retards. God says... crazy pardon_the_french guilty Dudly_Doright Obama Percival ROFLMAO if_anything_can_go_wrong Hasta Moses spirit Oh_really I_was_sleeping cosmetics incredibly I'm_God_who_the_hell_are_you study California You_get_what_you_pray_for never_happy service_sector I'm_busy resume Varoom but_of_course you_think_I'm_joking skills everythings_a_okay humility no_more You_get_what_you_pray_for tree_hugger doh Icarus I_see_nothing Angel are_you_insane hang_in_there bad small_talk ghastly go_ahead_make_my_day that's_all_folks beam_me_up NOT hang_in_there mocking prosperity One_finger_salute evolution joyful flat sex threads super_computer boss cowardice let's_see soap_opera big_fish you_talkin'_to_me yikes job impossible one_more_time hype skills Burp hang_in_there persistence imports it's_hopeless quit_it Hicc_up do_you_have_a_problem Bam repent hooah I_could_swear vote whoo_whoo mocking praying pet in_other_words break_some_woopass_on_you it_gets_better have_fun crazy I'm_good_you_good grumble exports vengeance let's_roll you're_out_of_your_mind climate so_he_sess guilty thats_right whale You_get_what_you_pray_for patience can_you_hear_me_now bye Yawn boss courage tree_hugger sky ingrate is_it_just_me_or Give_me_praise
- jebblue 14y agoHe is a handsome guy, and right usually, oh yes, I'm straight. Snap. I agree too, I hope Larry grows some wisdom instead of the usual hair he sports. It's bad enough Oracle owns Java already, it should have been IBM IMHO.
- bad_user 14y agoIBM owning Java would have been even worse.
- jebblue 14y agoMaybe, maybe not but they are heavy users of Java, it seems to me like it would have been a good fit.
- nextparadigms 14y agoGoogle should've owned Java. They use it extensively at Google and they also could've had total control over the language for Android. They could've just sold off the other parts of Sun later. Oh well, maybe Oracle wants to sell it now since they realized they can't make billions off it.
- jebblue 14y agoWith the excellent work they did with GWT you would think so. Actually Oracle has done a lot with Java too but this latest thing just wow, at least the courts came out with a logical decision.
- beedogs 14y agoWhy the hell haven't shareholders gotten fed up with Ellison yet? These waste-of-time legal junkets he goes on from time to time must be so infuriating.
- sgift 14y agohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_Corporation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_Corporation Revenue: US$ 35.6 billion (2011) Operating income: US$ 12.0 billion (2011) Net income: US$ 8.5 billion (2011)
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- falava 14y agoI'm sad that the only thing I can see is this: Mobile terms of service By tapping 'Accept', you agree that Google will use your location in this product and accept the Mobile Terms of Service. Edit: After reading the terms and accept... Using iPhone (nope I'm on iPad) download our app from the store, it's more fun. (no thanks) Or continue with the standard site. (very small) And, that last link goes to my home in Google+, not the Linus post. I have to searh the post again in HN and tap. The Linus words are funny but not for so much effort.
- mrebus 14y agoGot this too. Closed the page in safari and reopened the link. Worked from there. I did click accept for the location and no for the google plus app.