5 ms·

This is shocking for not currently being the case. Compare the EU where they're not only required to refund you in full, but also compensate you up to 600 euro

This is shocking for not currently being the case. Compare the EU where they're not only required to refund you in full, but also compensate you up to 600 euros. Note that compensation doesn't apply to weather related events and other 'not in our control' things, but the scope is pretty narrow.

imustbeevil 3y ago
Weather accounts for 75% of all airline delays (in the US). That disclaimer is kind of surprising to gloss over. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/22/weather/why-flights-get-canceled-weather-climate/index.html#:~:text=Weather%20is%20the%20largest%20cause,it%20comes%20to%20flight%20disruptions https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/22/weather/why-flights-get-c....
- pas 3y ago
  It worked for us a few years ago. Eurowings was late and the plane had to land somewhere else, they got us to the destination airport with buses. Then we got 250 EUR comp.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  Forcing airlines to compensate passengers for weather delays isn't going to work, and isn't equitable. You'd probably have people purposefully trying to book flights that are liable to be cancelled in order to profit. Don't know what disclaimer you're referring to but in the EU you still get a full refund for cancellations no matter what the reason.
  - ranger_danger 2y ago
    Did you just contradict yourself? I'm confused.
    - bramblerose 2y ago
      You can be refunded without receiving additional compensation.
  - chgs 2y ago
    If you know the flight will be cancelled why would the airline sell you the ticket?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- gravescale 3y ago
  Yes, but it's a bit unfair to ding an airline 600 euros per passenger on top of the fare refund because the weather wasn't safe. Fining an airline north of 100k because they didn't take off in unsafe weather would result in an even greater incentive to fly anyway. The fines are there to disincentivise the airlines from skimping on staffing or maintenance, causing delays, and lumping passengers with the expenses incurred by having to rearrange travel at short notice. I assume there is some kind of system in place to prevent airlines falsely claiming bad weather to escape the compensation rules.
  - preinheimer 3y ago
    I think there's another side to this. There's weather, and there's "It's winter". I don't think it's reasonable for airlines to expect to maintain the same number of departures that worked in the nice summer months through the winter. Runways will need to be cleared, planes will need to be de-iced. They could keep extra planes and staff around ready to replace an incoming flight if it's delayed (clearly easier for carriers with fewer types of aircraft). Heck just staff seem like they would be handy as the flight crew hit their service limits. But there's no financial incentive to do that if "weather" (despite happening every winter) is a get-out-of-jail-free card.
    - qazxcvbnmlp 2y ago
      There’s already an incentive with the weather. If have the plane has to be rebooked or refunded that’s lost revenue that stills ends up affecting the bottom line. The airline is still very incentivized to get you were you are going on time. Planes and crews still need to get where they were going so it’s much better for everyone involved if it’s a full plane with an on time arrival for passengers.
    - throwaway2037 2y ago
      > They could keep extra planes and staff around ready to replace an incoming flight if it's delayed This seems unrealistic. The cost would be prohibitive.
      - 2y ago
tschwimmer 3y ago
The compliance with this law is anecdotally very poor. Swiss Airlines owes me thousands of Euros for missed connections but they contend that the situations were outside their control (some mechanical issue) and thus they refuse to compensate. I have a 200 long thread email chain spanning years with no progress. You can use services like Airhelp to get a refund but they take a huge commission and I am too stubborn to give in that way. Luckily the statute of limitations on these claims is 6 years so I have enough time to figure out how to make a complaint to the Swiss aviation authority. Scanning a forum like flyertalk shows that most airlines basically refuse to voluntarily honor this law without being forced to in court (not even the threat of a lawsuit will get them to pay, you actually have to file it).
- osculum 3y ago
  Counterpoint, it has happened to me twice, once with Lufthansa and another time with a low cost airline (Vueling). Both times I was paid without fuss. Both times I filed for it myself.
- rahimnathwani 3y ago
  Swiss Airlines also owed me a bunch of money years ago, but I gave up chasing them. I should have used one of the services that takes 25%. 75% is better than zero!
  - tschwimmer 3y ago
    Financially? mathematically? Yes, certainly. From a principles perspective? it's a lot closer ;)
    - rahimnathwani 3y ago
      Yeah I'm trying to be more rational about the opportunity cost of my time.
    - thfuran 3y ago
      From a principles perspective, I'd rather the airline be forced to burn the money than get to keep it. Getting to keep a place chunk of it myself seems great.
TheAlchemist 3y ago
The law is very good, but unfortunately in practice it can be much harder to get the compensation. My mum had a significantly delayed flight - she should get 400 euros. 18 months after, she still has nothing - on the phone, they just say that the relevant departement will look into it but they don't answer to customers directly, and emails are just ignored. We did contact the relevant governement agency - they say the current wait time for them to do something is >12 months. It seems there is a business of law agencies specializing in extracting those compensations - but they take a big cut.
- switch007 2y ago
  It's basically internal policy for many airlines to only pay out when an official dispute resolution or small claims court process is started/won.
- account42 2y ago
  Did you file a dispute with your payment provider and/or small claims court?
  - TheAlchemist 2y ago
    Payment provider ? It was paid with a credit card, I don't think a bank could do anything here. We did not file a dispute - there is an government agency which specifically manages the cases of those refunds, and they are 'fully booked' for more than a year.
cycomanic 2y ago
Just to clarify, any flight which originated in the EU for any airline, or any flight coming into the EU operated by a EU airline (important for codesharing the operating airline counts not the issuing). Also the amount of compensation depends on delay and overall length of travel. I have purposefully been only booking on EU airline operated flights only after having been bitten twice before where I missed a connection and had to wait 7h (my home airport has only very few flights to the major intercontinental hubs, meaning any connection delay ends hub being quite significant). I have collected several thousand euros in delay compensation since then (multiple airlines) , never had to fight the airline to get it, simply filling in a form.
tauntz 2y ago
Yeah, that doesn't work in practice rather frequently. I was traveling 2 years ago with 4 people - flight was delayed enough that we were entitled to a 600EUR per person compensation (2400EUR in total, which is already something..). The captain of the delayed flight said that the delay was due to a previous delay in some other airport of the same aircraft due to some "traffic jam" (= not due to weather). However, when requesting the compensation, I was immediately shut down by the airline that this delay was due to "unforeseen circumstances" and what that exactly was, is a business secret that they can't disclose (wth?). They essentially told me to get lost and I'm free to file a complaint/dispute with the consumer protection agency. I reached out to the Italian consumer protection agency (idk what the exact name was) who according to EU rules is responsible for solving these disputes but they never answer to emails or to the online form that they have for these disputes. The EU wide organization that deals with these topics says that they can't do anything and only the Italian consumer protection agency as the authority to deal with this.. but they are ghosting me.
aqme28 2y ago
KLM made it really really hard to get compensated for a few flights that they canceled. Ended up going to a company that exists only to litigate these

imustbeevil 3y ago

Weather accounts for 75% of all airline delays (in the US). That disclaimer is kind of surprising to gloss over. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/22/weather/why-flights-get-canceled-weather-climate/index.html#:~:text=Weather%20is%20the%20largest%20cause,it%20comes%20to%20flight%20disruptions https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/22/weather/why-flights-get-c....

pas 3y ago
It worked for us a few years ago. Eurowings was late and the plane had to land somewhere else, they got us to the destination airport with buses. Then we got 250 EUR comp.
dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
Forcing airlines to compensate passengers for weather delays isn't going to work, and isn't equitable. You'd probably have people purposefully trying to book flights that are liable to be cancelled in order to profit. Don't know what disclaimer you're referring to but in the EU you still get a full refund for cancellations no matter what the reason.
- ranger_danger 2y ago
  Did you just contradict yourself? I'm confused.
  - bramblerose 2y ago
    You can be refunded without receiving additional compensation.
- chgs 2y ago
  If you know the flight will be cancelled why would the airline sell you the ticket?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
gravescale 3y ago
Yes, but it's a bit unfair to ding an airline 600 euros per passenger on top of the fare refund because the weather wasn't safe. Fining an airline north of 100k because they didn't take off in unsafe weather would result in an even greater incentive to fly anyway. The fines are there to disincentivise the airlines from skimping on staffing or maintenance, causing delays, and lumping passengers with the expenses incurred by having to rearrange travel at short notice. I assume there is some kind of system in place to prevent airlines falsely claiming bad weather to escape the compensation rules.
- preinheimer 3y ago
  I think there's another side to this. There's weather, and there's "It's winter". I don't think it's reasonable for airlines to expect to maintain the same number of departures that worked in the nice summer months through the winter. Runways will need to be cleared, planes will need to be de-iced. They could keep extra planes and staff around ready to replace an incoming flight if it's delayed (clearly easier for carriers with fewer types of aircraft). Heck just staff seem like they would be handy as the flight crew hit their service limits. But there's no financial incentive to do that if "weather" (despite happening every winter) is a get-out-of-jail-free card.
  - qazxcvbnmlp 2y ago
    There’s already an incentive with the weather. If have the plane has to be rebooked or refunded that’s lost revenue that stills ends up affecting the bottom line. The airline is still very incentivized to get you were you are going on time. Planes and crews still need to get where they were going so it’s much better for everyone involved if it’s a full plane with an on time arrival for passengers.
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    > They could keep extra planes and staff around ready to replace an incoming flight if it's delayed This seems unrealistic. The cost would be prohibitive.
    - 2y ago

tschwimmer 3y ago

The compliance with this law is anecdotally very poor. Swiss Airlines owes me thousands of Euros for missed connections but they contend that the situations were outside their control (some mechanical issue) and thus they refuse to compensate. I have a 200 long thread email chain spanning years with no progress. You can use services like Airhelp to get a refund but they take a huge commission and I am too stubborn to give in that way. Luckily the statute of limitations on these claims is 6 years so I have enough time to figure out how to make a complaint to the Swiss aviation authority. Scanning a forum like flyertalk shows that most airlines basically refuse to voluntarily honor this law without being forced to in court (not even the threat of a lawsuit will get them to pay, you actually have to file it).

osculum 3y ago
Counterpoint, it has happened to me twice, once with Lufthansa and another time with a low cost airline (Vueling). Both times I was paid without fuss. Both times I filed for it myself.
rahimnathwani 3y ago
Swiss Airlines also owed me a bunch of money years ago, but I gave up chasing them. I should have used one of the services that takes 25%. 75% is better than zero!
- tschwimmer 3y ago
  Financially? mathematically? Yes, certainly. From a principles perspective? it's a lot closer ;)
  - rahimnathwani 3y ago
    Yeah I'm trying to be more rational about the opportunity cost of my time.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    From a principles perspective, I'd rather the airline be forced to burn the money than get to keep it. Getting to keep a place chunk of it myself seems great.

TheAlchemist 3y ago

The law is very good, but unfortunately in practice it can be much harder to get the compensation. My mum had a significantly delayed flight - she should get 400 euros. 18 months after, she still has nothing - on the phone, they just say that the relevant departement will look into it but they don't answer to customers directly, and emails are just ignored. We did contact the relevant governement agency - they say the current wait time for them to do something is >12 months. It seems there is a business of law agencies specializing in extracting those compensations - but they take a big cut.

switch007 2y ago
It's basically internal policy for many airlines to only pay out when an official dispute resolution or small claims court process is started/won.
account42 2y ago
Did you file a dispute with your payment provider and/or small claims court?
- TheAlchemist 2y ago
  Payment provider ? It was paid with a credit card, I don't think a bank could do anything here. We did not file a dispute - there is an government agency which specifically manages the cases of those refunds, and they are 'fully booked' for more than a year.

cycomanic 2y ago

Just to clarify, any flight which originated in the EU for any airline, or any flight coming into the EU operated by a EU airline (important for codesharing the operating airline counts not the issuing). Also the amount of compensation depends on delay and overall length of travel. I have purposefully been only booking on EU airline operated flights only after having been bitten twice before where I missed a connection and had to wait 7h (my home airport has only very few flights to the major intercontinental hubs, meaning any connection delay ends hub being quite significant). I have collected several thousand euros in delay compensation since then (multiple airlines) , never had to fight the airline to get it, simply filling in a form.

tauntz 2y ago

Yeah, that doesn't work in practice rather frequently. I was traveling 2 years ago with 4 people - flight was delayed enough that we were entitled to a 600EUR per person compensation (2400EUR in total, which is already something..). The captain of the delayed flight said that the delay was due to a previous delay in some other airport of the same aircraft due to some "traffic jam" (= not due to weather). However, when requesting the compensation, I was immediately shut down by the airline that this delay was due to "unforeseen circumstances" and what that exactly was, is a business secret that they can't disclose (wth?). They essentially told me to get lost and I'm free to file a complaint/dispute with the consumer protection agency. I reached out to the Italian consumer protection agency (idk what the exact name was) who according to EU rules is responsible for solving these disputes but they never answer to emails or to the online form that they have for these disputes. The EU wide organization that deals with these topics says that they can't do anything and only the Italian consumer protection agency as the authority to deal with this.. but they are ghosting me.

aqme28 2y ago

KLM made it really really hard to get compensated for a few flights that they canceled. Ended up going to a company that exists only to litigate these