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>the end result will likely be that TikTok will be sold to US owners Why does everyone assume this is likely? The CCP has already said they would block a sale

>the end result will likely be that TikTok will be sold to US owners Why does everyone assume this is likely? The CCP has already said they would block a sale of TikTok. This happened a while ago - so the US saying TikTok must be sold is an effective ban. The misdirection of the wording of the ban is just dishonest.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> misdirection of the wording of the ban is just dishonest Ban usually means you can't use it anymore. Take, for example, Google in mainland China. Banned without unusual circumvention. If TikTok refuses to sell to a non-Chinese owner, on the other hand, they get removed from app stores. Their website still works without any circumvention. Not banned. Even in the worst case.
- nemothekid 3y ago
  1. You are moving the goalposts. Now it's not "they will be forced to sell", but "the website will still be available". 2. I am looking forward to seeing the justifications that will be trotted around once the USG torpedoes net neutrality and bans the website
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > you are moving the goalposts. Now it's not "they will be forced to sell", but "the website will still be available" Where did I set a goal post? What does the goal even represent in this metaphor? What counts as a ban? The United States is capable of banning stuff. When we take down pirate websites, we're enacting a ban: domain seizures, asset freezes, criminal penalties and possibly sanctions. We can even go lightweight: say it's illegal to provide services to Americans (or more draconian, which I must add lines up with China's approach, make it illegal to access them) and then leave enforcemnt to the executive. What we're doing here is milquetoast: sell enough to non-Chinese owners so they no longer have a controlling stake or distribute this from non-American servers and via the internet and sideloaded apps. Calling this a ban is like saying someone was banned from a restaurant because they arrived after it closed.
    - nemothekid 3y ago
      >Where did I set a goal post? What does the goal even represent in this metaphor? It has gone from "not a ban" because they just have to sell, to "not a ban" because because the website is still available. It's an effective ban because the CCP has already said they will not allow a TikTok sale. Congress knows there's no recourse for ByteDance. They aren't going to hand over the IP to a non-Chinese entity. If France said they were going to ban NVDA unless NVDA sells to a French national we would call it a ban. >Calling this a ban is like saying someone was banned from a restaurant because they arrived after it closed. The irony about this is that China has the same exact policy in the mainland, but no one argues whether or not Google is banned in China. Google used to be in China! China said Google had to censor some topics or they wouldn't be allowed to do business in China. Google opted to leave. Nobody sits around pontificating that it technically wasn't a ban because all Google needed to do what follow Chinese law on censorship.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > It has gone from "not a ban" because they just have to sell, to "not a ban" because because the website is still available These are both true, though. Again, if you want to see a ban, look at how Facebook is treated by China. But fair enough, people are using the term "ban" inconsistently. I wouldn't say anyone's moving the goalposts as much as we're using an ambiguous term interchangeably. > If France said they were going to ban NVDA unless NVDA sells to a French national we would call it a ban This is tautology. You literally said if Sally were to do X to Andy unless {}, then X = X. > Nobody sits around pontificating that it technically wasn't a ban because all Google needed to do what follow Chinese law on censorship You can't go to Google.com in China. You will be able to go to TikTok.com and access its content freely after it's been, per your definition, banned. From a free-speech perspective, that seems material. I get your point from a free-trade perspective. This is obviously not a free-trade bill. Maybe that's where the discussion is losing traction...
cwyers 3y ago
Why are you framing this in such a way that treats one party as having agency and the other party as being immovable? The US is not banning TikTok, they are posing stipulations towards its use and you believe the CCP when they say they won't comply with those stipulations. But why is that a ban, versus "the CCP refuses to let TikTok comply with US law?"
- nemothekid 3y ago
  Do you consider Google banned in China? The CCP had stipulations for Google's continued business in China. It was unable/unwilling to follow them, so Google left (voluntarily, infact). I've never seen anyone argue that Google isn't technically banned in China. It's clearly a ban when China does it.
  - cwyers 3y ago
    Do you consider companies that refuse to comply with GDPR banned in the EU?
    - nemothekid 3y ago
      Yes. Is this even a contentious point? Despite the fact EU hasn't bothered to null-route an application that doesn't comply, they will impose onerous fines. And what do companies do that don't want to comply to GDPR? They ban EU users. You can use the search bar here to find countless people talking about being banned. There's no ambiguity - there's only ambiguity when it comes to TikTok.
    - devmor 3y ago
      I don't recall the GDPR being created specifically to target one company that politicians disliked.
  - djur 3y ago
    Can you connect to the Internet in China and visit google.com?
- paulddraper 3y ago

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> misdirection of the wording of the ban is just dishonest Ban usually means you can't use it anymore. Take, for example, Google in mainland China. Banned without unusual circumvention. If TikTok refuses to sell to a non-Chinese owner, on the other hand, they get removed from app stores. Their website still works without any circumvention. Not banned. Even in the worst case.

nemothekid 3y ago
1. You are moving the goalposts. Now it's not "they will be forced to sell", but "the website will still be available". 2. I am looking forward to seeing the justifications that will be trotted around once the USG torpedoes net neutrality and bans the website
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > you are moving the goalposts. Now it's not "they will be forced to sell", but "the website will still be available" Where did I set a goal post? What does the goal even represent in this metaphor? What counts as a ban? The United States is capable of banning stuff. When we take down pirate websites, we're enacting a ban: domain seizures, asset freezes, criminal penalties and possibly sanctions. We can even go lightweight: say it's illegal to provide services to Americans (or more draconian, which I must add lines up with China's approach, make it illegal to access them) and then leave enforcemnt to the executive. What we're doing here is milquetoast: sell enough to non-Chinese owners so they no longer have a controlling stake or distribute this from non-American servers and via the internet and sideloaded apps. Calling this a ban is like saying someone was banned from a restaurant because they arrived after it closed.
  - nemothekid 3y ago
    >Where did I set a goal post? What does the goal even represent in this metaphor? It has gone from "not a ban" because they just have to sell, to "not a ban" because because the website is still available. It's an effective ban because the CCP has already said they will not allow a TikTok sale. Congress knows there's no recourse for ByteDance. They aren't going to hand over the IP to a non-Chinese entity. If France said they were going to ban NVDA unless NVDA sells to a French national we would call it a ban. >Calling this a ban is like saying someone was banned from a restaurant because they arrived after it closed. The irony about this is that China has the same exact policy in the mainland, but no one argues whether or not Google is banned in China. Google used to be in China! China said Google had to censor some topics or they wouldn't be allowed to do business in China. Google opted to leave. Nobody sits around pontificating that it technically wasn't a ban because all Google needed to do what follow Chinese law on censorship.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > It has gone from "not a ban" because they just have to sell, to "not a ban" because because the website is still available These are both true, though. Again, if you want to see a ban, look at how Facebook is treated by China. But fair enough, people are using the term "ban" inconsistently. I wouldn't say anyone's moving the goalposts as much as we're using an ambiguous term interchangeably. > If France said they were going to ban NVDA unless NVDA sells to a French national we would call it a ban This is tautology. You literally said if Sally were to do X to Andy unless {}, then X = X. > Nobody sits around pontificating that it technically wasn't a ban because all Google needed to do what follow Chinese law on censorship You can't go to Google.com in China. You will be able to go to TikTok.com and access its content freely after it's been, per your definition, banned. From a free-speech perspective, that seems material. I get your point from a free-trade perspective. This is obviously not a free-trade bill. Maybe that's where the discussion is losing traction...

cwyers 3y ago

Why are you framing this in such a way that treats one party as having agency and the other party as being immovable? The US is not banning TikTok, they are posing stipulations towards its use and you believe the CCP when they say they won't comply with those stipulations. But why is that a ban, versus "the CCP refuses to let TikTok comply with US law?"

nemothekid 3y ago
Do you consider Google banned in China? The CCP had stipulations for Google's continued business in China. It was unable/unwilling to follow them, so Google left (voluntarily, infact). I've never seen anyone argue that Google isn't technically banned in China. It's clearly a ban when China does it.
- cwyers 3y ago
  Do you consider companies that refuse to comply with GDPR banned in the EU?
  - nemothekid 3y ago
    Yes. Is this even a contentious point? Despite the fact EU hasn't bothered to null-route an application that doesn't comply, they will impose onerous fines. And what do companies do that don't want to comply to GDPR? They ban EU users. You can use the search bar here to find countless people talking about being banned. There's no ambiguity - there's only ambiguity when it comes to TikTok.
  - devmor 3y ago
    I don't recall the GDPR being created specifically to target one company that politicians disliked.
- djur 3y ago
  Can you connect to the Internet in China and visit google.com?
paulddraper 3y ago