9 ms·

While I'm not always thrilled that about the amount of monitoring United States Government does, as a United States Citizen, my government is at least marginall

by Aloha 2y ago

While I'm not always thrilled that about the amount of monitoring United States Government does, as a United States Citizen, my government is at least marginally accountable to me - if enough of us are bothered by this policy, we can choose to elect representatives who will change it. I can't say that about China, certainly not to me as a United States Citizen, and not even really to Chinese Citizens either - which is why it's another thing entirely when a foreign government is doing this level of monitoring on United States Soil. China is welcome to monitor its own citizens on its own soil to the extent it desires - and monitor communications in and out of China - they're however not welcome to do that level of monitoring on United States Soil on anyone who resides here - at least not without the explicit consent of the United States Government.

autoexec 2y ago
> While I'm not always thrilled that about the amount of monitoring United States Government does, as a United States Citizen, my government is at least marginally accountable to me - if enough of us are bothered by this policy, we can choose to elect representatives who will change it. On the other hand it's our own ostensibly accountable government that we have to worry about violating our freedoms, abusing and misinterpreting this data, targeting innocent people, etc. If China has this kind of data they still have no power to throw me in prison (provided that I stay out of China) and very little impact on my day to day life. I'm still not happy about them collecting my data, but I have much less to fear from it.
- vlovich123 2y ago
  > my government is at least marginally accountable to me - if enough of us are bothered by this policy, we can choose to elect representatives who will change it Except https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/11/china-is-using-tiktok-for-influence-campaigns-odni-says-00146336 https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/11/china-is-using-tikt... Not sure why you're discounting the potential for foreign influence campaigns from reducing the accountability your government has to you. > and very little impact on my day to day life It doesn't until it does at which point it would be too late & you're dealing with damage instead of preventing harm.
  - autoexec 2y ago
    > Not sure why you're discounting the potential for foreign influence campaigns from reducing the accountability your government has to you. I don't discount that potential. I'm certain it exists. I'm also certain that it exists on youtube and facebook and twitter and reddit and will continue to influence US politics long into the future. Yet the US government has never once spoken about banning facebook and youtube or any other platform doing exactly the same things as TikTok, they're focused only the threat of the one Chinese platform while allowing China, Russia and anyone else to influence Americans though US owned platforms. They're even fine with letting China influence Americans using TikTok as long as TikTok is owned by a US company. I'm just not buying the argument that TikTok represents a threat to our democracy any greater than the threat posed by youtube or twitter. I don't see how taking away our freedom to access/use a Chinese platform that isn't violating any US law and isn't doing anything different than similar US platforms are doing is really helping to protect us here. Congress telling Americans what software we can have installed on our own devices, and preventing us from accessing platforms in other countries seems much more likely to lead us down a slippery slope than one Chinese owned social media platform being allowed to do what all the US owned platforms are doing.
    - coupdejarnac 2y ago
      You'd probably change your tune if you actually saw all the propaganda being pushed on Douyin and other Chinese social media.
      - autoexec 2y ago
        I might if we saw that same propaganda being pushed on US users of TikTok but since we haven't... In fact, I suspect that the minute TikTok started feeding US users Chinese propaganda instead of whatever moronic thing is popular there currently US users would stop using the app and get the mind-numbing bite sized entertainment they crave on other social media platforms.
        coupdejarnac 2y ago
- Workaccount2 2y ago
  China collecting data is not the reason it was banned, and is largely a diversion meant to derail conversation about tiktok. The threat of tiktok is that the Chinese government has direct control over what content it's users consume. American social media is motivated by money. Chinese social media is motivated by state power.
  - autoexec 2y ago
    > The threat of tiktok is that the Chinese government has direct control over what content it's users consume. The same can be said of every single website hosted in China, but they aren't (yet) banning all Chinese websites or all content hosted in any other countries. Why not? The vast majority of the content US citizens view on TikTok was created by other US citizens and that content is no different than the content available on youtube or any other social media platform. Certainly China can influence what types of content people see (and they've done a lot of messed up stuff in the past like filtering out "ugly, poor, and disabled" people's videos) but it isn't as if they can flip a switch and start only showing children dancing to "The East Is Red" and expect to keep their popularity. There seems to be no evidence that TikTok is any more manipulative or dangerous than any other social media platform. Youtube is just as happy to push extremist content to increase engagement but nobody is talking about banning them.
    - nailer 2y ago
      > The same can be said of every single website hosted in China, but they aren't (yet) banning all Chinese websites or all content hosted in any other countries. Why not? I imagine the US audience for tiktok is larger than all chinese websites combined.
      - autoexec 2y ago
        I'm not very comforted by the idea that our government won't censor content from other countries as long as we aren't looking at it. If the content is legal, it should be allowed.
- apex3stoker 2y ago
  I think the issue is that China can use TikTok to run publicity campaigns to sway the voters into supporting policies or political candidates they like. They can do it more effectively with executives residing in China. The US government won’t be able to do the same thing with the two party systems and with more checks and balances.
  - interactivecode 2y ago
    Well in the US the gov doesnt do it themselves directly but instead pays russians to do it for them. I guess the chineese werent willing?
    - apex3stoker 2y ago
      The US government never did that. Russian did use facebook and other social media to influence voters. It was rather effective. But it is totally different from Chinese government compelling tiktok using full access of its internal data to do their bidding in secret. The effectiveness will likely be much higher.
  - BeFlatXIII 2y ago
    They wouldn't run publicity campaigns from Beijing; they'd spotlight domestic voices using their 1A rights who say the same thing.
nemothekid 2y ago
The problem with the TikTok ban is that it is now, as a US citizen, it is exceptionally more difficult to consume content that is not filtered by US hegemony. The Israel/Palestine conflict was an eye opener because on every other platform, pro-palestine content is actively suppressed. It's also strange that Americans are uniquely afforded this privilege and many consider it a natural right, but don't consider that their relationship with TikTok is same relationship the rest of world has with Meta. French citizens, despite the GDPR, have no recourse for accountability when it comes the US government.
- idrisser 2y ago
  Totally agree and that's why X and TikTok are so precious when the US gov's propaganda is omnipresent on all other social networks (not even talking about traditional media...)
  - nashashmi 2y ago
    The failure of anti-israel suppression of speech on Tiktok is the main driver for this bill. Yet, everyone keeps saying it is a China problem. it was bundled with a war spending bill. That says loads about the importance and burial of information this carries.
    - lossolo 2y ago
      1000x this, I'm not sure why more people do not see that when it's pretty obvious. People that actually use TikTok know what I mean, Israel narration lost and videos from Palestine reporting what's going on were super popular. Now there are pro Palestinian protests at campuses around US against US Israel policy and US government do not like that. TikTok was IMO the main driver of showing what's going in Gaza.
      - nashashmi 2y ago
        I bet the uni protests were the catalyst behind the passage of the bill
kelnos 2y ago
I don't use TikTok, so I'm not particularly worried about the Chinese government using it to spy on me. What I am worried about is the Chinese government using TikTok to launch influence and misinformation campaigns against US citizens.
- interactivecode 2y ago
  Do you feel it’s possible to get information that isn’t filtered or influenced by the US government? Aka how confident are you that the information you are getting today is honest, accurate and not influenced in any way? That you get the full picture, the good and the bad? While I do feel like my personal views are more aligned with the US / west. I’m not convinced im getting balanced information. Its a little naive to suggest that only our enemies are doing propaganda.
  - asadotzler 2y ago
    Disinformation campaigns by my elected representatives are not the same thing as disinformation campaigns by top adversarial governments. If you can't see that, you're not fixable.
- nashashmi 2y ago
  > Chinese government using TikTok to launch influence and misinformation campaigns That is not what anyone is concerned about. The US tried to get Tiktok to suppress pro-palestine information against israel. Tiktok effectively said they are not doing any manipulation of promoted info, even in favor of israel. congress resurrected a ban for it. The recent uni protests helped in doing that.

by Aloha 2y ago

autoexec 2y ago

> While I'm not always thrilled that about the amount of monitoring United States Government does, as a United States Citizen, my government is at least marginally accountable to me - if enough of us are bothered by this policy, we can choose to elect representatives who will change it. On the other hand it's our own ostensibly accountable government that we have to worry about violating our freedoms, abusing and misinterpreting this data, targeting innocent people, etc. If China has this kind of data they still have no power to throw me in prison (provided that I stay out of China) and very little impact on my day to day life. I'm still not happy about them collecting my data, but I have much less to fear from it.

vlovich123 2y ago
> my government is at least marginally accountable to me - if enough of us are bothered by this policy, we can choose to elect representatives who will change it Except https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/11/china-is-using-tiktok-for-influence-campaigns-odni-says-00146336 https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/11/china-is-using-tikt... Not sure why you're discounting the potential for foreign influence campaigns from reducing the accountability your government has to you. > and very little impact on my day to day life It doesn't until it does at which point it would be too late & you're dealing with damage instead of preventing harm.
- autoexec 2y ago
  > Not sure why you're discounting the potential for foreign influence campaigns from reducing the accountability your government has to you. I don't discount that potential. I'm certain it exists. I'm also certain that it exists on youtube and facebook and twitter and reddit and will continue to influence US politics long into the future. Yet the US government has never once spoken about banning facebook and youtube or any other platform doing exactly the same things as TikTok, they're focused only the threat of the one Chinese platform while allowing China, Russia and anyone else to influence Americans though US owned platforms. They're even fine with letting China influence Americans using TikTok as long as TikTok is owned by a US company. I'm just not buying the argument that TikTok represents a threat to our democracy any greater than the threat posed by youtube or twitter. I don't see how taking away our freedom to access/use a Chinese platform that isn't violating any US law and isn't doing anything different than similar US platforms are doing is really helping to protect us here. Congress telling Americans what software we can have installed on our own devices, and preventing us from accessing platforms in other countries seems much more likely to lead us down a slippery slope than one Chinese owned social media platform being allowed to do what all the US owned platforms are doing.
  - coupdejarnac 2y ago
    You'd probably change your tune if you actually saw all the propaganda being pushed on Douyin and other Chinese social media.
    - autoexec 2y ago
      I might if we saw that same propaganda being pushed on US users of TikTok but since we haven't... In fact, I suspect that the minute TikTok started feeding US users Chinese propaganda instead of whatever moronic thing is popular there currently US users would stop using the app and get the mind-numbing bite sized entertainment they crave on other social media platforms.
      - coupdejarnac 2y ago
Workaccount2 2y ago
China collecting data is not the reason it was banned, and is largely a diversion meant to derail conversation about tiktok. The threat of tiktok is that the Chinese government has direct control over what content it's users consume. American social media is motivated by money. Chinese social media is motivated by state power.
- autoexec 2y ago
  > The threat of tiktok is that the Chinese government has direct control over what content it's users consume. The same can be said of every single website hosted in China, but they aren't (yet) banning all Chinese websites or all content hosted in any other countries. Why not? The vast majority of the content US citizens view on TikTok was created by other US citizens and that content is no different than the content available on youtube or any other social media platform. Certainly China can influence what types of content people see (and they've done a lot of messed up stuff in the past like filtering out "ugly, poor, and disabled" people's videos) but it isn't as if they can flip a switch and start only showing children dancing to "The East Is Red" and expect to keep their popularity. There seems to be no evidence that TikTok is any more manipulative or dangerous than any other social media platform. Youtube is just as happy to push extremist content to increase engagement but nobody is talking about banning them.
  - nailer 2y ago
    > The same can be said of every single website hosted in China, but they aren't (yet) banning all Chinese websites or all content hosted in any other countries. Why not? I imagine the US audience for tiktok is larger than all chinese websites combined.
    - autoexec 2y ago
      I'm not very comforted by the idea that our government won't censor content from other countries as long as we aren't looking at it. If the content is legal, it should be allowed.
apex3stoker 2y ago
I think the issue is that China can use TikTok to run publicity campaigns to sway the voters into supporting policies or political candidates they like. They can do it more effectively with executives residing in China. The US government won’t be able to do the same thing with the two party systems and with more checks and balances.
- interactivecode 2y ago
  Well in the US the gov doesnt do it themselves directly but instead pays russians to do it for them. I guess the chineese werent willing?
  - apex3stoker 2y ago
    The US government never did that. Russian did use facebook and other social media to influence voters. It was rather effective. But it is totally different from Chinese government compelling tiktok using full access of its internal data to do their bidding in secret. The effectiveness will likely be much higher.
- BeFlatXIII 2y ago
  They wouldn't run publicity campaigns from Beijing; they'd spotlight domestic voices using their 1A rights who say the same thing.

nemothekid 2y ago

The problem with the TikTok ban is that it is now, as a US citizen, it is exceptionally more difficult to consume content that is not filtered by US hegemony. The Israel/Palestine conflict was an eye opener because on every other platform, pro-palestine content is actively suppressed. It's also strange that Americans are uniquely afforded this privilege and many consider it a natural right, but don't consider that their relationship with TikTok is same relationship the rest of world has with Meta. French citizens, despite the GDPR, have no recourse for accountability when it comes the US government.

idrisser 2y ago
Totally agree and that's why X and TikTok are so precious when the US gov's propaganda is omnipresent on all other social networks (not even talking about traditional media...)
- nashashmi 2y ago
  The failure of anti-israel suppression of speech on Tiktok is the main driver for this bill. Yet, everyone keeps saying it is a China problem. it was bundled with a war spending bill. That says loads about the importance and burial of information this carries.
  - lossolo 2y ago
    1000x this, I'm not sure why more people do not see that when it's pretty obvious. People that actually use TikTok know what I mean, Israel narration lost and videos from Palestine reporting what's going on were super popular. Now there are pro Palestinian protests at campuses around US against US Israel policy and US government do not like that. TikTok was IMO the main driver of showing what's going in Gaza.
    - nashashmi 2y ago
      I bet the uni protests were the catalyst behind the passage of the bill

kelnos 2y ago

I don't use TikTok, so I'm not particularly worried about the Chinese government using it to spy on me. What I am worried about is the Chinese government using TikTok to launch influence and misinformation campaigns against US citizens.

interactivecode 2y ago
Do you feel it’s possible to get information that isn’t filtered or influenced by the US government? Aka how confident are you that the information you are getting today is honest, accurate and not influenced in any way? That you get the full picture, the good and the bad? While I do feel like my personal views are more aligned with the US / west. I’m not convinced im getting balanced information. Its a little naive to suggest that only our enemies are doing propaganda.
- asadotzler 2y ago
  Disinformation campaigns by my elected representatives are not the same thing as disinformation campaigns by top adversarial governments. If you can't see that, you're not fixable.
nashashmi 2y ago
> Chinese government using TikTok to launch influence and misinformation campaigns That is not what anyone is concerned about. The US tried to get Tiktok to suppress pro-palestine information against israel. Tiktok effectively said they are not doing any manipulation of promoted info, even in favor of israel. congress resurrected a ban for it. The recent uni protests helped in doing that.