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> Further, Chinese government officials would show up unannounced and plug shit into our networks, and required access to our encryption keys and accounts datab

> Further, Chinese government officials would show up unannounced and plug shit into our networks, and required access to our encryption keys and accounts databases and employee & customer lists etc. This happens in the US too and has been happening for a very long time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A) only when it happens to US companies they get gag orders and/or paid off. (see https://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/jun/06/verizon-telephone-data-court-order https://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/jun/06/ve... and https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/report-att-cooperated-extensively-nsa-sharing-billions-phone-email-records https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/report-att-cooperated-... and https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/06/how-federal-government-buys-our-cell-phone-location-data https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/06/how-federal-government... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit) The content on tiktok is a problem, but there's nothing on tiktok that isn't also on facebook/reddit/twitter/youtube. The difference is that when the servers are in China the US government can't get that kind of access/cooperation.

Aloha 3y ago
While I'm not always thrilled that about the amount of monitoring United States Government does, as a United States Citizen, my government is at least marginally accountable to me - if enough of us are bothered by this policy, we can choose to elect representatives who will change it. I can't say that about China, certainly not to me as a United States Citizen, and not even really to Chinese Citizens either - which is why it's another thing entirely when a foreign government is doing this level of monitoring on United States Soil. China is welcome to monitor its own citizens on its own soil to the extent it desires - and monitor communications in and out of China - they're however not welcome to do that level of monitoring on United States Soil on anyone who resides here - at least not without the explicit consent of the United States Government.
- autoexec 3y ago
  > While I'm not always thrilled that about the amount of monitoring United States Government does, as a United States Citizen, my government is at least marginally accountable to me - if enough of us are bothered by this policy, we can choose to elect representatives who will change it. On the other hand it's our own ostensibly accountable government that we have to worry about violating our freedoms, abusing and misinterpreting this data, targeting innocent people, etc. If China has this kind of data they still have no power to throw me in prison (provided that I stay out of China) and very little impact on my day to day life. I'm still not happy about them collecting my data, but I have much less to fear from it.
  - vlovich123 3y ago
    > my government is at least marginally accountable to me - if enough of us are bothered by this policy, we can choose to elect representatives who will change it Except https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/11/china-is-using-tiktok-for-influence-campaigns-odni-says-00146336 https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/11/china-is-using-tikt... Not sure why you're discounting the potential for foreign influence campaigns from reducing the accountability your government has to you. > and very little impact on my day to day life It doesn't until it does at which point it would be too late & you're dealing with damage instead of preventing harm.
    - autoexec 3y ago
      > Not sure why you're discounting the potential for foreign influence campaigns from reducing the accountability your government has to you. I don't discount that potential. I'm certain it exists. I'm also certain that it exists on youtube and facebook and twitter and reddit and will continue to influence US politics long into the future. Yet the US government has never once spoken about banning facebook and youtube or any other platform doing exactly the same things as TikTok, they're focused only the threat of the one Chinese platform while allowing China, Russia and anyone else to influence Americans though US owned platforms. They're even fine with letting China influence Americans using TikTok as long as TikTok is owned by a US company. I'm just not buying the argument that TikTok represents a threat to our democracy any greater than the threat posed by youtube or twitter. I don't see how taking away our freedom to access/use a Chinese platform that isn't violating any US law and isn't doing anything different than similar US platforms are doing is really helping to protect us here. Congress telling Americans what software we can have installed on our own devices, and preventing us from accessing platforms in other countries seems much more likely to lead us down a slippery slope than one Chinese owned social media platform being allowed to do what all the US owned platforms are doing.
      - coupdejarnac 3y ago
        You'd probably change your tune if you actually saw all the propaganda being pushed on Douyin and other Chinese social media.
- nemothekid 3y ago
  The problem with the TikTok ban is that it is now, as a US citizen, it is exceptionally more difficult to consume content that is not filtered by US hegemony. The Israel/Palestine conflict was an eye opener because on every other platform, pro-palestine content is actively suppressed. It's also strange that Americans are uniquely afforded this privilege and many consider it a natural right, but don't consider that their relationship with TikTok is same relationship the rest of world has with Meta. French citizens, despite the GDPR, have no recourse for accountability when it comes the US government.
  - idrisser 3y ago
    Totally agree and that's why X and TikTok are so precious when the US gov's propaganda is omnipresent on all other social networks (not even talking about traditional media...)
    - nashashmi 3y ago
      The failure of anti-israel suppression of speech on Tiktok is the main driver for this bill. Yet, everyone keeps saying it is a China problem. it was bundled with a war spending bill. That says loads about the importance and burial of information this carries.
      - lossolo 3y ago
        1000x this, I'm not sure why more people do not see that when it's pretty obvious. People that actually use TikTok know what I mean, Israel narration lost and videos from Palestine reporting what's going on were super popular. Now there are pro Palestinian protests at campuses around US against US Israel policy and US government do not like that. TikTok was IMO the main driver of showing what's going in Gaza.
        nashashmi 3y ago
        I bet the uni protests were the catalyst behind the passage of the bill
- kelnos 3y ago
  I don't use TikTok, so I'm not particularly worried about the Chinese government using it to spy on me. What I am worried about is the Chinese government using TikTok to launch influence and misinformation campaigns against US citizens.
  - interactivecode 3y ago
    Do you feel it’s possible to get information that isn’t filtered or influenced by the US government? Aka how confident are you that the information you are getting today is honest, accurate and not influenced in any way? That you get the full picture, the good and the bad? While I do feel like my personal views are more aligned with the US / west. I’m not convinced im getting balanced information. Its a little naive to suggest that only our enemies are doing propaganda.
    - asadotzler 3y ago
      Disinformation campaigns by my elected representatives are not the same thing as disinformation campaigns by top adversarial governments. If you can't see that, you're not fixable.
  - nashashmi 3y ago
    > Chinese government using TikTok to launch influence and misinformation campaigns That is not what anyone is concerned about. The US tried to get Tiktok to suppress pro-palestine information against israel. Tiktok effectively said they are not doing any manipulation of promoted info, even in favor of israel. congress resurrected a ban for it. The recent uni protests helped in doing that.
wumeow 3y ago
> The difference is that when the servers are in China the US government can't get that kind of access/cooperation. Except that TikTok’s data, or the main copy of it at least, resides in the US, so the evil US govt theoretically already has access to it. That’s not the motivation for this bill.
- autoexec 3y ago
  I know they've said they would plan to store American's data on US-based servers, but wouldn't promise to stop sending data back to China or keep ByteDance from accessing it. I'm not sure that the US government having exclusive access to this data enough to make them go this far.
- packetlost 3y ago
  It's not about access to the data, it's about access to controlling or influencing the content that users see.

Aloha 3y ago

While I'm not always thrilled that about the amount of monitoring United States Government does, as a United States Citizen, my government is at least marginally accountable to me - if enough of us are bothered by this policy, we can choose to elect representatives who will change it. I can't say that about China, certainly not to me as a United States Citizen, and not even really to Chinese Citizens either - which is why it's another thing entirely when a foreign government is doing this level of monitoring on United States Soil. China is welcome to monitor its own citizens on its own soil to the extent it desires - and monitor communications in and out of China - they're however not welcome to do that level of monitoring on United States Soil on anyone who resides here - at least not without the explicit consent of the United States Government.

autoexec 3y ago
> While I'm not always thrilled that about the amount of monitoring United States Government does, as a United States Citizen, my government is at least marginally accountable to me - if enough of us are bothered by this policy, we can choose to elect representatives who will change it. On the other hand it's our own ostensibly accountable government that we have to worry about violating our freedoms, abusing and misinterpreting this data, targeting innocent people, etc. If China has this kind of data they still have no power to throw me in prison (provided that I stay out of China) and very little impact on my day to day life. I'm still not happy about them collecting my data, but I have much less to fear from it.
- vlovich123 3y ago
  > my government is at least marginally accountable to me - if enough of us are bothered by this policy, we can choose to elect representatives who will change it Except https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/11/china-is-using-tiktok-for-influence-campaigns-odni-says-00146336 https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/11/china-is-using-tikt... Not sure why you're discounting the potential for foreign influence campaigns from reducing the accountability your government has to you. > and very little impact on my day to day life It doesn't until it does at which point it would be too late & you're dealing with damage instead of preventing harm.
  - autoexec 3y ago
    > Not sure why you're discounting the potential for foreign influence campaigns from reducing the accountability your government has to you. I don't discount that potential. I'm certain it exists. I'm also certain that it exists on youtube and facebook and twitter and reddit and will continue to influence US politics long into the future. Yet the US government has never once spoken about banning facebook and youtube or any other platform doing exactly the same things as TikTok, they're focused only the threat of the one Chinese platform while allowing China, Russia and anyone else to influence Americans though US owned platforms. They're even fine with letting China influence Americans using TikTok as long as TikTok is owned by a US company. I'm just not buying the argument that TikTok represents a threat to our democracy any greater than the threat posed by youtube or twitter. I don't see how taking away our freedom to access/use a Chinese platform that isn't violating any US law and isn't doing anything different than similar US platforms are doing is really helping to protect us here. Congress telling Americans what software we can have installed on our own devices, and preventing us from accessing platforms in other countries seems much more likely to lead us down a slippery slope than one Chinese owned social media platform being allowed to do what all the US owned platforms are doing.
    - coupdejarnac 3y ago
      You'd probably change your tune if you actually saw all the propaganda being pushed on Douyin and other Chinese social media.
nemothekid 3y ago
The problem with the TikTok ban is that it is now, as a US citizen, it is exceptionally more difficult to consume content that is not filtered by US hegemony. The Israel/Palestine conflict was an eye opener because on every other platform, pro-palestine content is actively suppressed. It's also strange that Americans are uniquely afforded this privilege and many consider it a natural right, but don't consider that their relationship with TikTok is same relationship the rest of world has with Meta. French citizens, despite the GDPR, have no recourse for accountability when it comes the US government.
- idrisser 3y ago
  Totally agree and that's why X and TikTok are so precious when the US gov's propaganda is omnipresent on all other social networks (not even talking about traditional media...)
  - nashashmi 3y ago
    The failure of anti-israel suppression of speech on Tiktok is the main driver for this bill. Yet, everyone keeps saying it is a China problem. it was bundled with a war spending bill. That says loads about the importance and burial of information this carries.
    - lossolo 3y ago
      1000x this, I'm not sure why more people do not see that when it's pretty obvious. People that actually use TikTok know what I mean, Israel narration lost and videos from Palestine reporting what's going on were super popular. Now there are pro Palestinian protests at campuses around US against US Israel policy and US government do not like that. TikTok was IMO the main driver of showing what's going in Gaza.
      - nashashmi 3y ago
        I bet the uni protests were the catalyst behind the passage of the bill
kelnos 3y ago
I don't use TikTok, so I'm not particularly worried about the Chinese government using it to spy on me. What I am worried about is the Chinese government using TikTok to launch influence and misinformation campaigns against US citizens.
- interactivecode 3y ago
  Do you feel it’s possible to get information that isn’t filtered or influenced by the US government? Aka how confident are you that the information you are getting today is honest, accurate and not influenced in any way? That you get the full picture, the good and the bad? While I do feel like my personal views are more aligned with the US / west. I’m not convinced im getting balanced information. Its a little naive to suggest that only our enemies are doing propaganda.
  - asadotzler 3y ago
    Disinformation campaigns by my elected representatives are not the same thing as disinformation campaigns by top adversarial governments. If you can't see that, you're not fixable.
- nashashmi 3y ago
  > Chinese government using TikTok to launch influence and misinformation campaigns That is not what anyone is concerned about. The US tried to get Tiktok to suppress pro-palestine information against israel. Tiktok effectively said they are not doing any manipulation of promoted info, even in favor of israel. congress resurrected a ban for it. The recent uni protests helped in doing that.

wumeow 3y ago

> The difference is that when the servers are in China the US government can't get that kind of access/cooperation. Except that TikTok’s data, or the main copy of it at least, resides in the US, so the evil US govt theoretically already has access to it. That’s not the motivation for this bill.

autoexec 3y ago
I know they've said they would plan to store American's data on US-based servers, but wouldn't promise to stop sending data back to China or keep ByteDance from accessing it. I'm not sure that the US government having exclusive access to this data enough to make them go this far.
packetlost 3y ago
It's not about access to the data, it's about access to controlling or influencing the content that users see.