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Yes. It's the Chinese exclusion act all over again. We already been through this historically. Essentially a ban on race/ethnicity vs practice.

by hmm37 2y ago

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Chinese exclusion act all over again...a ban on race/ethnicity vs practice This is an incredibly bad-faith comparison. People of Chinese descent aren't being discriminated in any way by this bill. In the same way China blocking Google isn't an act of racism, this is putting restrictions on a foreign state which is acting belligerentlyt towards us. We required American companies to stop doing business with the Nazis when we went to war with them. (Though not a moment sooner.) That wasn't racism, it was strategic sense.
- hmm37 2y ago
  It's not a bad-faith comparison at all. There's nothing about Tiktok's practice that is necessarily illegal as it follows basically the same business model as all other social media companies. It is only that it has a Chinese shareholder amongst its shareholders, and therefore must be ban unless this Chinese shareholder sells his share. We aren't at war with China, nor are we close yet. Although it seems like people do want to move closer to a war and seem to hype China as some existential threat to the USA, and therefore try to justify such ideas. This is despite the fact that historically China has pretty much never used its navy to try to attack another nation except for basically (Japan), and that was when the Mongols had seized control of the nation about 800 years ago. China has throughout history basically repudiated the Mongols' methods and violence, and the Mongol ruled dynasty was considered one of the shortest in Chinese history because of this. Moreover one of the reasons why the Mongols did not succeed in conquering Japan was because the Chinese did not give the Mongols seafaring ships, and the keels were too flat to be stable in the ocean, despite the fact that China did have the technology for stable ships. This meant that the Chinese ships that were sent to Japan to attack easily capsized and the Mongol soldiers on them drown. China blocking Google isn't China blocking Google because it is a US company. China is blocking due to the fact that Google doesn't censor. When Google tried to reenter the Chinese market, it was blocked and criticized from TWO different sources (1) Various US government officials and congressmen; (2) Google's own employees. Google acceded to pressure from the US, not China.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > only that it has a Chinese shareholder amongst its shareholders, and therefore must be ban unless this Chinese shareholder sells his share The issue is the Chinese state's involvement. (TikTok's CEO perjuring himself about this didn't help [1].) > We aren't at war with China They are, under U.S. law, a foreign adversary [2]. If we were at war with China, we'd be talking about sanctioning ByteDance. Not merely removing it from app stores if it can't find a non-Chinese buyer. > historically China has pretty much never used its navy to try to attack another nation except for basically (Japan) Historically America has never used its space force to attack anyone. Meanwhile, China literally invaded and annexed Tibet in 1951 [3] and continues to use no uncertain terms about its intentions in respect of Taiwan [4]. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandralevine/2023/05/30/tiktok-creators-data-security-china/?sh=2a6d1e470488 https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandralevine/2023/05/30/tikt... [2] https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-15/subtitle-A/part-7/subpart-A/section-7.4 https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-15/subtitle-A/part-7/subp... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Tibet_by_the_People's_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Tibet_by_the_Peo... [4] https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-drops-peaceful-reunification-reference-taiwan-raises-defence-spending-by-2024-03-05/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-drops-peaceful-reu...
    - hmm37 2y ago
      (1) We are talking about an existential threat to the US. The idea that China is literally going to take its navy/army and try invading the US. (2) Taiwan and Tibet are different cases and could not be considered clear and cut cases of invasion and annexation. (3) Tibet and Taiwan was never internationally recognized as independent and were/are considered a part of Qing, later Republic of China and later by most nations as a part of a "China" whether now the PRC or previously ROC. They tried to secede, similarly like what happens during a civil war. Therefore they did/do not have what people call Westphalian sovereignty. We similarly e.g. also don't talk about the South during the Civil War as being a separate internationally recognized state. And therefore we also do not talk about the Union invading a different nation, the Confederacy, but simply a civil war within a nation. Nor do we say that the Union annex the Confederacy. Taiwan has the same constitution, national anthem, flag, etc. as the Republic of China under Sun Yatsen. It still regards all of China, which includes all of the mainland territories as part of its territory, and Taiwan is a mere province, which is considered "Free China". It was the previous Chinese government before the PRC took control during a civil war in 1949. That civil war in a sense never ended. And throughout Chinese history there has been many cases where essentially civil wars took e.g. a 100+ years to settle, but there was sometimes periods of relatively peace between parties, even a trading relationship. A famous one is e.g. the Three Kingdoms period.

Yes. It's the Chinese exclusion act all over again. We already been through this historically. Essentially a ban on race/ethnicity vs practice.

by hmm37 2y ago

Yes. It's the Chinese exclusion act all over again. We already been through this historically. Essentially a ban on race/ethnicity vs practice.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> Chinese exclusion act all over again...a ban on race/ethnicity vs practice This is an incredibly bad-faith comparison. People of Chinese descent aren't being discriminated in any way by this bill. In the same way China blocking Google isn't an act of racism, this is putting restrictions on a foreign state which is acting belligerentlyt towards us. We required American companies to stop doing business with the Nazis when we went to war with them. (Though not a moment sooner.) That wasn't racism, it was strategic sense.

hmm37 2y ago
It's not a bad-faith comparison at all. There's nothing about Tiktok's practice that is necessarily illegal as it follows basically the same business model as all other social media companies. It is only that it has a Chinese shareholder amongst its shareholders, and therefore must be ban unless this Chinese shareholder sells his share. We aren't at war with China, nor are we close yet. Although it seems like people do want to move closer to a war and seem to hype China as some existential threat to the USA, and therefore try to justify such ideas. This is despite the fact that historically China has pretty much never used its navy to try to attack another nation except for basically (Japan), and that was when the Mongols had seized control of the nation about 800 years ago. China has throughout history basically repudiated the Mongols' methods and violence, and the Mongol ruled dynasty was considered one of the shortest in Chinese history because of this. Moreover one of the reasons why the Mongols did not succeed in conquering Japan was because the Chinese did not give the Mongols seafaring ships, and the keels were too flat to be stable in the ocean, despite the fact that China did have the technology for stable ships. This meant that the Chinese ships that were sent to Japan to attack easily capsized and the Mongol soldiers on them drown. China blocking Google isn't China blocking Google because it is a US company. China is blocking due to the fact that Google doesn't censor. When Google tried to reenter the Chinese market, it was blocked and criticized from TWO different sources (1) Various US government officials and congressmen; (2) Google's own employees. Google acceded to pressure from the US, not China.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > only that it has a Chinese shareholder amongst its shareholders, and therefore must be ban unless this Chinese shareholder sells his share The issue is the Chinese state's involvement. (TikTok's CEO perjuring himself about this didn't help [1].) > We aren't at war with China They are, under U.S. law, a foreign adversary [2]. If we were at war with China, we'd be talking about sanctioning ByteDance. Not merely removing it from app stores if it can't find a non-Chinese buyer. > historically China has pretty much never used its navy to try to attack another nation except for basically (Japan) Historically America has never used its space force to attack anyone. Meanwhile, China literally invaded and annexed Tibet in 1951 [3] and continues to use no uncertain terms about its intentions in respect of Taiwan [4]. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandralevine/2023/05/30/tiktok-creators-data-security-china/?sh=2a6d1e470488 https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandralevine/2023/05/30/tikt... [2] https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-15/subtitle-A/part-7/subpart-A/section-7.4 https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-15/subtitle-A/part-7/subp... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Tibet_by_the_People's_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Tibet_by_the_Peo... [4] https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-drops-peaceful-reunification-reference-taiwan-raises-defence-spending-by-2024-03-05/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-drops-peaceful-reu...
  - hmm37 2y ago
    (1) We are talking about an existential threat to the US. The idea that China is literally going to take its navy/army and try invading the US. (2) Taiwan and Tibet are different cases and could not be considered clear and cut cases of invasion and annexation. (3) Tibet and Taiwan was never internationally recognized as independent and were/are considered a part of Qing, later Republic of China and later by most nations as a part of a "China" whether now the PRC or previously ROC. They tried to secede, similarly like what happens during a civil war. Therefore they did/do not have what people call Westphalian sovereignty. We similarly e.g. also don't talk about the South during the Civil War as being a separate internationally recognized state. And therefore we also do not talk about the Union invading a different nation, the Confederacy, but simply a civil war within a nation. Nor do we say that the Union annex the Confederacy. Taiwan has the same constitution, national anthem, flag, etc. as the Republic of China under Sun Yatsen. It still regards all of China, which includes all of the mainland territories as part of its territory, and Taiwan is a mere province, which is considered "Free China". It was the previous Chinese government before the PRC took control during a civil war in 1949. That civil war in a sense never ended. And throughout Chinese history there has been many cases where essentially civil wars took e.g. a 100+ years to settle, but there was sometimes periods of relatively peace between parties, even a trading relationship. A famous one is e.g. the Three Kingdoms period.