6 ms·

Is anyone else concerned at the societal effects of technology like this? In one of the examples they show a young girl. In the upscale example it's quite clear

Is anyone else concerned at the societal effects of technology like this? In one of the examples they show a young girl. In the upscale example it's quite clearly hallucinating makeup and lipstick. I'm quite worried about tools like this perpetuating social norms even further.

roughly 2y ago
Yes, but if you mention that here, you’ll get accused of wokeism. More seriously, though, yes, the thing you’re describing is exactly what the AI safety field is attempting to address.
- Culonavirus 2y ago
  > is exactly what the AI safety field is attempting to address Is it though? I think it's pretty obvious to any neutral observer that this is not the case, at least judging based on recent examples (leading with the Gemini debacle).
  - fwip 2y ago
    Yes, avoiding creating societally-harmful content is what the Gemini "debacle" was attempting to do. It clearly had unintended effects (e.g: generating a black Thomas Jefferson), but when these became apparent, they apologized and tried to put up guard rails to keep those negative effects from happening.
    - Culonavirus 2y ago
      > societally-harmful content Who decides what is "societally-harmful content"? Isn't literally rewriting history "societally-harmful"? The black T.J. was a fun meme, but that's not what the alignment's "unintended effects" were limited to. I'd also say that if your LLM condemns right-wing mass murderers, but "it's complicated" with the left-wing mass murderers (I'm not going to list a dozen of other examples here, these things are documented and easy to find online if you care), there's something wrong with your LLM. Genocide is genocide.
      - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
        This isn't the un-determinable question you've framed it as. Society defines what is and isn't acceptable all the time. > Who decides what is "societally-harmful theft"? > Who decides what is "societally-harmful medical malpractice"? > Who decides what is "societally-harmful libel"? The people who care to make the world a better place and push back against those that cause harm. Generally a mix of de facto industry standard practices set by societal values and pressures, and de jure laws established through democratic voting, legislature enactment, and court decisions. "What is "societally-harmful driving behavior"" was once a broad and undetermined question but nevertheless it received an extensive and highly defined answer.
        N0b8ez 2y ago
        > The people who care to make the world a better place and push back against those that cause harm. This is circular. It's fine to just say "I don't know" or "I don't have a good answer", but pretending otherwise is deceptive.
        HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
        Read the entire comment before replying, please. I'm not interested in lazy comments like this, and they're not appropriate for HN.
      - fwip 2y ago
        > Who decides what is "societally-harmful content"? Are you stupid, or just pretending to be?
    - llm_nerd 2y ago
      What Gemini was doing -- what it was explicitly forced to do by poorly considered dogma -- was societally harmful. It is utterly impossible that these were "unintended"[1], and were revealed by even the most basic usage. They aren't putting guardrails to prevent it from happening, they quite literally removed instructions that explicitly forced the model to do certain bizarre things (like white erasure, or white quota-ing). [1] - Are people seriously still trying to argue that it was some sort of weird artifact? It was blatantly overt and explicit, and absolutely embarrassing. Hopefully Google has removed everyone involved with that from having any influence on anything for perpetuity as they demonstrate profoundly poor judgment and a broken sense of what good is.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - fwip 2y ago
        I didn't say the outcome wasn't harmful. I said that the intent of the people who put it in place was to reduce harm, which is obvious.
  - roughly 2y ago
    Yeah, I don’t think there’s such thing as a “neutral observer” on this.
    - Culonavirus 2y ago
      An LLM should represent a reasonable middle of the political bell curve where Antifa is on the far left and Alt-Right is on the far right. That is what I meant by a neutral observer. Any kind of political violence should be cosidered deplorable, which was not the case with some of the Gemini answers. Though I do concede that right wingers cooked up questionable prompts and were fishing for a story.
      - Intralexical 2y ago
        Speaking as somebody from outside the United States, please keep the middle of your political bell curve away from us.
      - roughly 2y ago
        All of this is political. It always is. Where does the LLM fall on trans rights? Where does it fall on income inequality? Where does it fall on tax policy? "Any kind of political violence should be considered deplorable" - where's this fall on Israel/Gaza (or Hamas/Israel)? Does that question seem non-political to you? 50 years ago, the middle of American politics considered homosexuality a mental disorder - was that neutral? Right now if you ask it to show you a Christian, what is it going to show you? What _should_ it show you? Right now, the LLM is taking a whole bunch of content from across society, which is why it turns back a white man when you ask it for a doctor - is that neutral? It's putting lipstick on an 8-year-old, is that neutral? Is a "political bell curve" with "antifa on the left" and "alt-right on the right" neutral in Norway? In Brazil? In Russia?
      - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
        > An LLM should represent a reasonable middle of the political bell curve where Antifa is on the far left and Alt-Right is on the far right. That is what I meant by a neutral observer. This is a bad idea. Equating extremist views with those seeking to defend human rights blurs the ethical reality of the situation. Adopting a centrist position without critical thought obscures the truth since not all viewpoints are equally valid or deserve equal consideration. We must critically evaluate the merits of each position (anti-fascists and fascists are very different positions indeed) rather than blindly placing them on equal footing, especially as history has shown the consequences of false equivalence perpetuate injustice.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  Nobody mentioned wokism except you.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
arketyp 2y ago
I don't know, it's a mirror, right? It's up to us to change really. Besides, failures like the one you point out make subtle stereotypes and biases more conspicuous, which could be a good thing.
- ixtli 2y ago
  Precisely: tools don't have morality. We have to engage in political and social struggle to make our conditions better. These tools can help but they certainly wont do it for us, nor will they be the reason why things go bad.
- ajmurmann 2y ago
  It's interesting that the output of the genAI will inevitably get fed into itself. Both directly and indirectly by influencing humans who generate content that goes back into the machine. How long will the feedback loop take to output content reflecting new trends? How much new content is needed to be reflected in the output in a meaningful way. Can more recent content be weighted more heavily? Such interesting stuff!
unshavedyak 2y ago
Aside your point: It does look like she is wearing lipstick tho, to me. More likely lip balm. Her (unaltered) lips have specular highlights on the tops that suggests they're wet or have lip balm to me. As for the makeup, not sure there. Here cheeks seem rosy in the original, and not sure what you're referring to beyond that. Perhaps her skin is too clear in the AI version, suggesting some type of foundation? I know nothing of makeup tho, just describing my observations.
the_duke 2y ago
I don't think it's hallucinating too much. The nails have nail polish in the original, and the lips also look like they have at least lip gloss or a somewhat more muted lipstick.
bbstats 2y ago
looks pretty clearly like she has makeup/lipstick on in the un-processed video to me.
MrNeon 2y ago
Seems to be stock footage, is it surprising makeup would be involved?
satvikpendem 2y ago
From Plato's dialogue Phaedrus 14, 274c-275b: Socrates: I heard, then, that at Naucratis, in Egypt, was one of the ancient gods of that country, the one whose sacred bird is called the ibis, and the name of the god himself was Theuth. He it was who invented numbers and arithmetic and geometry and astronomy, also draughts and dice, and, most important of all, letters. Now the king of all Egypt at that time was the god Thamus, who lived in the great city of the upper region, which the Greeks call the Egyptian Thebes, and they call the god himself Ammon. To him came Theuth to show his inventions, saying that they ought to be imparted to the other Egyptians. But Thamus asked what use there was in each, and as Theuth enumerated their uses, expressed praise or blame, according as he approved or disapproved. "The story goes that Thamus said many things to Theuth in praise or blame of the various arts, which it would take too long to repeat; but when they came to the letters, "This invention, O king," said Theuth, "will make the Egyptians wiser and will improve their memories; for it is an elixir of memory and wisdom that I have discovered." But Thamus replied, "Most ingenious Theuth, one man has the ability to beget arts, but the ability to judge of their usefulness or harmfulness to their users belongs to another; and now you, who are the father of letters, have been led by your affection to ascribe to them a power the opposite of that which they really possess. "For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have invented an elixir not of memory, but of reminding; and you offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise."
mrandish 2y ago
No, I'm not concerned. When an AI is trained on a largely raw, uncurated set of low-quality data (eg most of the public internet), it's going to miss subtle distinctions some humans might prefer that it make. I'm confident that pretty quickly the majority of the general public using such AIs will begin to intuitively understand this. Just as they have developed a practical, working understanding of other complex technology's limitations (such as auto-complete algorithms). No matter how good AI gets, there will always be some frontier boundary where it gets something wrong. My evidence is simply that even smart humans trying their best occasionally get such subtle distinctions wrong. However, this innate limitation doesn't mean that an AI can't still be useful. What I am concerned about is that AI providers will keep wasting time and resources trying to implement band-aid "patches" to address what is actually an innate limitation. For example, exception processing at the output stage fails in ways we've already seen, such as AI photos containing female popes or an AI lying to deny that HP Lovecraft had a childhood pet (due to said pet having a name that was crudely rude 100 years ago but racist today). The alternative of limiting the training data to include only curated content fails by yielding a much less useful AI. My, probably unpopular, opinion is that when AI inevitably screws up some edge case, we get more comfortable saying, basically, "Hey, sometimes stupid AI is gonna be stupid." The honest approach is to tell users upfront: when quality or correctness or fitness for any given purpose is important, you need to check every AI output because sometimes it's gonna fail. Just like auto-pilots, auto-correct and auto- everything else. As impressive as AI can sometimes be, personally, I think it's still lingering just below the threshold of "broadly useful" and, lately, the rate of fundamental improvement is slowing. We can't really afford to be squandering limited development resources or otherwise nerfing AI's capabilities to pursue ultimately unattainable standards. That's a losing game because there's a growing cottage industry of concern trolls figuring out how to get an AI to generate "problematic" output to garner those sweet "tsk tsk" clicks. As long as we keep reflexively reacting, those goalposts will never stop moving. Instead, we need to get off that treadmill and lower user expectations based on the reality of the current technology and data sets.
- erhaetherth 2y ago
  > AI lying to deny that HP Lovecraft had a childhood pet GPT4 told me with no hesitation.

roughly 2y ago

Yes, but if you mention that here, you’ll get accused of wokeism. More seriously, though, yes, the thing you’re describing is exactly what the AI safety field is attempting to address.

Culonavirus 2y ago
> is exactly what the AI safety field is attempting to address Is it though? I think it's pretty obvious to any neutral observer that this is not the case, at least judging based on recent examples (leading with the Gemini debacle).
- fwip 2y ago
  Yes, avoiding creating societally-harmful content is what the Gemini "debacle" was attempting to do. It clearly had unintended effects (e.g: generating a black Thomas Jefferson), but when these became apparent, they apologized and tried to put up guard rails to keep those negative effects from happening.
  - Culonavirus 2y ago
    > societally-harmful content Who decides what is "societally-harmful content"? Isn't literally rewriting history "societally-harmful"? The black T.J. was a fun meme, but that's not what the alignment's "unintended effects" were limited to. I'd also say that if your LLM condemns right-wing mass murderers, but "it's complicated" with the left-wing mass murderers (I'm not going to list a dozen of other examples here, these things are documented and easy to find online if you care), there's something wrong with your LLM. Genocide is genocide.
    - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
      This isn't the un-determinable question you've framed it as. Society defines what is and isn't acceptable all the time. > Who decides what is "societally-harmful theft"? > Who decides what is "societally-harmful medical malpractice"? > Who decides what is "societally-harmful libel"? The people who care to make the world a better place and push back against those that cause harm. Generally a mix of de facto industry standard practices set by societal values and pressures, and de jure laws established through democratic voting, legislature enactment, and court decisions. "What is "societally-harmful driving behavior"" was once a broad and undetermined question but nevertheless it received an extensive and highly defined answer.
      - N0b8ez 2y ago
        > The people who care to make the world a better place and push back against those that cause harm. This is circular. It's fine to just say "I don't know" or "I don't have a good answer", but pretending otherwise is deceptive.
        HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
        Read the entire comment before replying, please. I'm not interested in lazy comments like this, and they're not appropriate for HN.
    - fwip 2y ago
      > Who decides what is "societally-harmful content"? Are you stupid, or just pretending to be?
  - llm_nerd 2y ago
    What Gemini was doing -- what it was explicitly forced to do by poorly considered dogma -- was societally harmful. It is utterly impossible that these were "unintended"[1], and were revealed by even the most basic usage. They aren't putting guardrails to prevent it from happening, they quite literally removed instructions that explicitly forced the model to do certain bizarre things (like white erasure, or white quota-ing). [1] - Are people seriously still trying to argue that it was some sort of weird artifact? It was blatantly overt and explicit, and absolutely embarrassing. Hopefully Google has removed everyone involved with that from having any influence on anything for perpetuity as they demonstrate profoundly poor judgment and a broken sense of what good is.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - fwip 2y ago
      I didn't say the outcome wasn't harmful. I said that the intent of the people who put it in place was to reduce harm, which is obvious.
- roughly 2y ago
  Yeah, I don’t think there’s such thing as a “neutral observer” on this.
  - Culonavirus 2y ago
    An LLM should represent a reasonable middle of the political bell curve where Antifa is on the far left and Alt-Right is on the far right. That is what I meant by a neutral observer. Any kind of political violence should be cosidered deplorable, which was not the case with some of the Gemini answers. Though I do concede that right wingers cooked up questionable prompts and were fishing for a story.
    - Intralexical 2y ago
      Speaking as somebody from outside the United States, please keep the middle of your political bell curve away from us.
    - roughly 2y ago
      All of this is political. It always is. Where does the LLM fall on trans rights? Where does it fall on income inequality? Where does it fall on tax policy? "Any kind of political violence should be considered deplorable" - where's this fall on Israel/Gaza (or Hamas/Israel)? Does that question seem non-political to you? 50 years ago, the middle of American politics considered homosexuality a mental disorder - was that neutral? Right now if you ask it to show you a Christian, what is it going to show you? What _should_ it show you? Right now, the LLM is taking a whole bunch of content from across society, which is why it turns back a white man when you ask it for a doctor - is that neutral? It's putting lipstick on an 8-year-old, is that neutral? Is a "political bell curve" with "antifa on the left" and "alt-right on the right" neutral in Norway? In Brazil? In Russia?
    - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
      > An LLM should represent a reasonable middle of the political bell curve where Antifa is on the far left and Alt-Right is on the far right. That is what I meant by a neutral observer. This is a bad idea. Equating extremist views with those seeking to defend human rights blurs the ethical reality of the situation. Adopting a centrist position without critical thought obscures the truth since not all viewpoints are equally valid or deserve equal consideration. We must critically evaluate the merits of each position (anti-fascists and fascists are very different positions indeed) rather than blindly placing them on equal footing, especially as history has shown the consequences of false equivalence perpetuate injustice.
lupusreal 2y ago
Nobody mentioned wokism except you.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

arketyp 2y ago

I don't know, it's a mirror, right? It's up to us to change really. Besides, failures like the one you point out make subtle stereotypes and biases more conspicuous, which could be a good thing.

ixtli 2y ago
Precisely: tools don't have morality. We have to engage in political and social struggle to make our conditions better. These tools can help but they certainly wont do it for us, nor will they be the reason why things go bad.
ajmurmann 2y ago
It's interesting that the output of the genAI will inevitably get fed into itself. Both directly and indirectly by influencing humans who generate content that goes back into the machine. How long will the feedback loop take to output content reflecting new trends? How much new content is needed to be reflected in the output in a meaningful way. Can more recent content be weighted more heavily? Such interesting stuff!

unshavedyak 2y ago

Aside your point: It does look like she is wearing lipstick tho, to me. More likely lip balm. Her (unaltered) lips have specular highlights on the tops that suggests they're wet or have lip balm to me. As for the makeup, not sure there. Here cheeks seem rosy in the original, and not sure what you're referring to beyond that. Perhaps her skin is too clear in the AI version, suggesting some type of foundation? I know nothing of makeup tho, just describing my observations.

the_duke 2y ago

I don't think it's hallucinating too much. The nails have nail polish in the original, and the lips also look like they have at least lip gloss or a somewhat more muted lipstick.

bbstats 2y ago

looks pretty clearly like she has makeup/lipstick on in the un-processed video to me.

MrNeon 2y ago

Seems to be stock footage, is it surprising makeup would be involved?

satvikpendem 2y ago

From Plato's dialogue Phaedrus 14, 274c-275b: Socrates: I heard, then, that at Naucratis, in Egypt, was one of the ancient gods of that country, the one whose sacred bird is called the ibis, and the name of the god himself was Theuth. He it was who invented numbers and arithmetic and geometry and astronomy, also draughts and dice, and, most important of all, letters. Now the king of all Egypt at that time was the god Thamus, who lived in the great city of the upper region, which the Greeks call the Egyptian Thebes, and they call the god himself Ammon. To him came Theuth to show his inventions, saying that they ought to be imparted to the other Egyptians. But Thamus asked what use there was in each, and as Theuth enumerated their uses, expressed praise or blame, according as he approved or disapproved. "The story goes that Thamus said many things to Theuth in praise or blame of the various arts, which it would take too long to repeat; but when they came to the letters, "This invention, O king," said Theuth, "will make the Egyptians wiser and will improve their memories; for it is an elixir of memory and wisdom that I have discovered." But Thamus replied, "Most ingenious Theuth, one man has the ability to beget arts, but the ability to judge of their usefulness or harmfulness to their users belongs to another; and now you, who are the father of letters, have been led by your affection to ascribe to them a power the opposite of that which they really possess. "For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have invented an elixir not of memory, but of reminding; and you offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise."

mrandish 2y ago

No, I'm not concerned. When an AI is trained on a largely raw, uncurated set of low-quality data (eg most of the public internet), it's going to miss subtle distinctions some humans might prefer that it make. I'm confident that pretty quickly the majority of the general public using such AIs will begin to intuitively understand this. Just as they have developed a practical, working understanding of other complex technology's limitations (such as auto-complete algorithms). No matter how good AI gets, there will always be some frontier boundary where it gets something wrong. My evidence is simply that even smart humans trying their best occasionally get such subtle distinctions wrong. However, this innate limitation doesn't mean that an AI can't still be useful. What I am concerned about is that AI providers will keep wasting time and resources trying to implement band-aid "patches" to address what is actually an innate limitation. For example, exception processing at the output stage fails in ways we've already seen, such as AI photos containing female popes or an AI lying to deny that HP Lovecraft had a childhood pet (due to said pet having a name that was crudely rude 100 years ago but racist today). The alternative of limiting the training data to include only curated content fails by yielding a much less useful AI. My, probably unpopular, opinion is that when AI inevitably screws up some edge case, we get more comfortable saying, basically, "Hey, sometimes stupid AI is gonna be stupid." The honest approach is to tell users upfront: when quality or correctness or fitness for any given purpose is important, you need to check every AI output because sometimes it's gonna fail. Just like auto-pilots, auto-correct and auto- everything else. As impressive as AI can sometimes be, personally, I think it's still lingering just below the threshold of "broadly useful" and, lately, the rate of fundamental improvement is slowing. We can't really afford to be squandering limited development resources or otherwise nerfing AI's capabilities to pursue ultimately unattainable standards. That's a losing game because there's a growing cottage industry of concern trolls figuring out how to get an AI to generate "problematic" output to garner those sweet "tsk tsk" clicks. As long as we keep reflexively reacting, those goalposts will never stop moving. Instead, we need to get off that treadmill and lower user expectations based on the reality of the current technology and data sets.

erhaetherth 2y ago
> AI lying to deny that HP Lovecraft had a childhood pet GPT4 told me with no hesitation.