17 ms·

I see the feedback here is overwhelmingly negative. My biggest problem is that it’s too narrowly targeted. I have worked for several US businesses with global

by efitz 2y ago

I see the feedback here is overwhelmingly negative. My biggest problem is that it’s too narrowly targeted. I have worked for several US businesses with global footprints and working with China (and some other countries) required whole or part ownership of the business by entities within that nation. So we partnered with businesses in China to set up and operate our infra, and had to manage everything through contracts. Further, Chinese government officials would show up unannounced and plug shit into our networks, and required access to our encryption keys and accounts databases and employee & customer lists etc. We had to build independent systems just for China to prevent sharing information about non-China based customers and employees. Where we couldn’t do that, we had to build filtered replication “diodes” to prevent data leakage. China and other countries do far worse to us than just requiring local ownership of businesses; and if they feel that is in their national interest, why can’t we return the favor when we feel it’s in our interest?

nebula8804 2y ago
>China and other countries do far worse to us than just requiring local ownership of businesses; and if they feel that is in their national interest, why can’t we return the favor when we feel it’s in our interest? This is bigger than China for a lot of people. TikTok has given an alternative voice to groups typically marginalized on pro-Western platforms. We typically see hypocrisy from the West when it comes to Israel and current times are no different. Tiktok has allowed nearly more access to whatever footage is capable of sneaking out of the warzone whereas Meta platforms tend to suppress. (ex: they recently auto-defaulted a restriction on political content without informing their users).
- slowmovintarget 2y ago
  TikTok amplifies whatever is in China's interest to amplify. Today, it happens to be voices opposed to Israel. Tomorrow, it could easily be the opposite. The goal is to generate geopolitical chaos to veil other actions (Taiwan, South China sea, Chinese migrant injections into Panama...). A society's strength comes from its unity of will and resolve. Social media can be used to attack that unity... and has, not just by China.
  - coldtea 2y ago
    >TikTok amplifies whatever is in China's interest to amplify. So just like the other platforms, but for China instead of the US? (aka: "It's bad when you do it, not when we do it").
    - Aloha 2y ago
      I dont know that I would be making that claim about other platforms - there is something unique, pervasive and opaque about TikTok and how they try to drive engagement.
    - slowmovintarget 2y ago
      That's putting words in my mouth. All social media with attention management may be weaponized and has generally proven to be unhealthy for society. TikTok happens to be actively worse for a number of reasons, one of them being that it is designed to be so.
    - Workaccount2 2y ago
      If Biden wants instagram to show you pictures of ponies, the best he can do is go to congress and get funding to run an ad campaign on instagram to show people ponies. If Xi wants to show you ponies, you'll see them all over tiktok tomorow.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - arandomusername 2y ago
        That's not really true. https://reason.com/2023/07/28/biden-white-house-pressured-facebook-to-censor-lab-leak-posts/ https://reason.com/2023/07/28/biden-white-house-pressured-fa... One exmaple of many. If Biden doesn't want you seeing something, the white house will put pressure on social media companies to censor it.
        wumeow 2y ago
- Aloha 2y ago
  I'm not seeing any issue with those voices finding a space elsewhere say on X/Twitter - believe me, I see enough of the slop over from it. The level of direct control the US Government has over US Social Media platforms pales in comparison to the control China has over TikTok.
  - nebula8804 2y ago
    Why not both? As it stands X platform is run by a pathological liar that has cozied up to the ADL to get the activist Pro-Israel community off his back. Many users many not prefer to use that platform because of these issues. The more options for people the better. What people seem to be forgetting is that TikTok is not the only market player. To single them out is absurd in this context.
  - nemothekid 2y ago
    Saying the word "cis" is enough to catch a ban on Twitter. Somehow in America, uncensored only means that far right white supremacists can say n**er freely.
  - zeroonetwothree 2y ago
    After all there’s even a scotus case this term about the government merely “suggesting” that social media act a certain way.
- hhjinks 2y ago
  >TikTok has given an alternative voice to groups typically marginalized on pro-Western platforms This has to be substantiated, because it seems blatantly absurd on its face. Are you saying TikTok is an anti-western platform? That, in and of itself, justifies the divestment, considering the owner, no? Furthermore, what "pro-western" platforms are you talking about? I haven't seen anything from TikTok that wouldn't fly on discord or reddit, for example.
  - nebula8804 2y ago
    It allows you to see content typically hidden on other platforms. There should be freedom of choice. Its not like TikTok is the only game in town so if you are that triggered by the content that is on there then you should just log onto Meta platforms and leave the settings to restrict certain political posts that they quietly pushed to the "ON" setting.
    - hhjinks 2y ago
      I asked you to substantiate it, not repeat exactly the same point again.
      - nebula8804 2y ago
        There is so much content supporting this thesis with a 5 second google search. [1]:https://www.hrw.org/report/2023/12/21/metas-broken-promises/systemic-censorship-palestine-content-instagram-and https://www.hrw.org/report/2023/12/21/metas-broken-promises/... As I have mentioned above and in other replies. Meta platforms has quietly introduced a filter for certain political topics that was pushed to their user base with no notification. [2]:https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/meta-limit-some-facebook-comments-israeli-palestinian-posts-2023-10-18/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/meta-limit-some-fa...
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - nemothekid 2y ago
- nebula8804 2y ago
  [flagged]
autoexec 2y ago
> Further, Chinese government officials would show up unannounced and plug shit into our networks, and required access to our encryption keys and accounts databases and employee & customer lists etc. This happens in the US too and has been happening for a very long time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A) only when it happens to US companies they get gag orders and/or paid off. (see https://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/jun/06/verizon-telephone-data-court-order https://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/jun/06/ve... and https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/report-att-cooperated-extensively-nsa-sharing-billions-phone-email-records https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/report-att-cooperated-... and https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/06/how-federal-government-buys-our-cell-phone-location-data https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/06/how-federal-government... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit) The content on tiktok is a problem, but there's nothing on tiktok that isn't also on facebook/reddit/twitter/youtube. The difference is that when the servers are in China the US government can't get that kind of access/cooperation.
- Aloha 2y ago
  While I'm not always thrilled that about the amount of monitoring United States Government does, as a United States Citizen, my government is at least marginally accountable to me - if enough of us are bothered by this policy, we can choose to elect representatives who will change it. I can't say that about China, certainly not to me as a United States Citizen, and not even really to Chinese Citizens either - which is why it's another thing entirely when a foreign government is doing this level of monitoring on United States Soil. China is welcome to monitor its own citizens on its own soil to the extent it desires - and monitor communications in and out of China - they're however not welcome to do that level of monitoring on United States Soil on anyone who resides here - at least not without the explicit consent of the United States Government.
  - autoexec 2y ago
    > While I'm not always thrilled that about the amount of monitoring United States Government does, as a United States Citizen, my government is at least marginally accountable to me - if enough of us are bothered by this policy, we can choose to elect representatives who will change it. On the other hand it's our own ostensibly accountable government that we have to worry about violating our freedoms, abusing and misinterpreting this data, targeting innocent people, etc. If China has this kind of data they still have no power to throw me in prison (provided that I stay out of China) and very little impact on my day to day life. I'm still not happy about them collecting my data, but I have much less to fear from it.
mrtksn 2y ago
I know this is not straight up a ban but it is a ban. Maybe Musk will buy it for pennies ona dollar and will turn my TikTok feed to my Twitter feed, which is full of lunatics, conspiracy theories, racist, dog whistle racist, conman and Tesla boys. Maybe Zuck will buy it and will start showing hot girls, meals and tourist attractions like they do on Instagram? Since I'm not it the USA, maybe I will be able to use the global TikTok that I love. Hopefully. But this is not my main concern, my main concern is that you people act like everything is about business and the users are just cattle. 0 regards about the fact that lots and lots of people love this app. I'm one of them because its the last place on the internet where it feels like I'm not supposed to be outraged or spending money all the time. It feels like the old internet for me. Also, if the American users are lost, I will loose a lot of great content. I'm appalled that people here on HN have no ability to realize that they deal with real people and not only numbers in the analytics and the bank. It almost feels like there's no sense of identity here, no sese of persons who must have freedom to use and consume whatever they want. The argument goes "The Chinese are banning our social media companies, why would we do the same?". Why don't you rephrase it as "The Chinese communist part controls what apps and media the Chinese citizens can consume, why we don't control what Americans consume?". Can you really not see that taking away a product that people use is not only about companies? Are you really that blind to see that you can't claim being "the free world" by imitating China? Chinese government is not the ideal form of governance, please stop trying to be like China. Have some sense of personal freedoms.
- Aloha 2y ago
  I've watched people end up radicalized by content on TikTok - in ways that twitter, facebook, youtube, et al doesn't seem to do. You end up seeing the opening for a rabbit hole, and then suddenly you're very deep into said rabbit hole. I get your concerns over loss of something you enjoy - but the content is steerable enough by algorithm and addictive enough that a little twiddle of the knob, and suddenly a bunch of people believe some very harmful and hard to eliminate untruths.
  - mrtksn 2y ago
    Really? People get radicalised on the American social media all the time. Then go shoot people, all the time. Numerous shootings were organised on 4Chan&similar. What did your radicalised ones did may I ask? I hope it's more than having the "wrong" opinions on hot topics. Can we please stop admiring China, Russia, DPRK and other similar countries where having the "wrong opinions" is considered radicalisation?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
asdasdsddd 2y ago
I think people are reticent to admit that unfettered globalism (especially in the internet which was meant to connect the world) is bad and has serious security implications. It should've been obvious retrospectively, but folks were lulled by a sense of post-soviet optimism.
- BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
  Im concerned this represents a more general trend towards severing the small connections between countries formed on things like social networks, and that in doing so we’re opening ourselves up to a public that will be more supportive of useless war.
  - krapp 2y ago
    No. Stop. The public is only against war because Chinese spies are hypnotizing them with algorithms. You're not thinking clearly. The red menace is everywhere, you need to stay vigilant and focused.
  - throw-the-towel 2y ago
    If anything, social networks will only fuel support for war, as we're seeing with Russia and Ukraine. Among the more liberal-minded Russians like me and most people I know back home, support for the Ukrainians had collapsed after two years of interacting with them online. It's become so bad, some people I met on the net have actually gone from opposing the war to volunteering to join the Russian army. And as for the Ukrainian side, their opinion of the common people of Russia is no better. Anyway, we had way more of the "small links" you mentioned than you guys will ever have with the Chinese. A lot of us have family on the other side, even more had good friends across the border. The war destroyed most of these connections, and in case the West and China fall into a war, I don't see any reason whatsoever for you to do any better.
    - BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
      I can’t argue with that. Why do you think the exposure leads to less or equal camaraderie? I know interpersonal exposure to groups tends to reduce dislike of those groups, so is it an issue with the medium?
segasaturn 2y ago
>and if they feel that is in their national interest, why can’t we return the favor when we feel it’s in our interest? By the looks of it, it seems like you want the US to be more like the CCP than the other way around. Imitating authoritarian governments harms America's global reputation for "freedom and democracy", if that reputation even still exists.
- hot_gril 2y ago
  I view it like trade. They block our social media there, we block theirs here. EU did the same when we put tariffs on their steel or something.
  - jtriangle 2y ago
    And eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
    - tomatokoolaid 2y ago
      Yes, at least half blind. But an eye for nothing but complacence often results in two eyes for nothing ... and handing your adversary full advantage.
    - hot_gril 2y ago
      That saying applies to things you cannot take back, like blinding someone, not trade agreements. It's also like an eye for 200 eyes at this point. Tit-for-tat (or some softer variation) is pretty standard diplomatic protocol.
      - jtriangle 2y ago
        Sure, but can you take back banning a social media platform? Very likely not, because even if you did, it'd still be ruined by a massive loss of users/ad partners/etc. Realistically, what we needed is comprehensive user privacy legislation, which would prevent anyone from spying on us, including our own government. Likely the reason that did not happen is because our government enjoys access to our user data for various things.
turquoisevar 2y ago
I see variations of this argument pop up in this debate, which always confuses me. I’d expect the takeaway to be “That’s bad, so we shouldn’t do it” instead of “Hold my beer and let me show you how we can follow their example.” I always thought that the point was to not be like authoritarian countries.
- j2kun 2y ago
  > follow their example Nothing about this is following their example. It's saying, "if you do the bad thing we won't let you operate here."
- brigadier132 2y ago
  > I always thought that the point was to not be like authoritarian countries. No, the point is to not give authoritarian countries a free pass. This is like saying we shouldn't put people in jail for murder because it's effectively kidnapping and that would make us like them.
- asadotzler 2y ago
  Ever study game theory? Apparently not.

by efitz 2y ago

nebula8804 2y ago

>China and other countries do far worse to us than just requiring local ownership of businesses; and if they feel that is in their national interest, why can’t we return the favor when we feel it’s in our interest? This is bigger than China for a lot of people. TikTok has given an alternative voice to groups typically marginalized on pro-Western platforms. We typically see hypocrisy from the West when it comes to Israel and current times are no different. Tiktok has allowed nearly more access to whatever footage is capable of sneaking out of the warzone whereas Meta platforms tend to suppress. (ex: they recently auto-defaulted a restriction on political content without informing their users).

slowmovintarget 2y ago
TikTok amplifies whatever is in China's interest to amplify. Today, it happens to be voices opposed to Israel. Tomorrow, it could easily be the opposite. The goal is to generate geopolitical chaos to veil other actions (Taiwan, South China sea, Chinese migrant injections into Panama...). A society's strength comes from its unity of will and resolve. Social media can be used to attack that unity... and has, not just by China.
- coldtea 2y ago
  >TikTok amplifies whatever is in China's interest to amplify. So just like the other platforms, but for China instead of the US? (aka: "It's bad when you do it, not when we do it").
  - Aloha 2y ago
    I dont know that I would be making that claim about other platforms - there is something unique, pervasive and opaque about TikTok and how they try to drive engagement.
  - slowmovintarget 2y ago
    That's putting words in my mouth. All social media with attention management may be weaponized and has generally proven to be unhealthy for society. TikTok happens to be actively worse for a number of reasons, one of them being that it is designed to be so.
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    If Biden wants instagram to show you pictures of ponies, the best he can do is go to congress and get funding to run an ad campaign on instagram to show people ponies. If Xi wants to show you ponies, you'll see them all over tiktok tomorow.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - arandomusername 2y ago
      That's not really true. https://reason.com/2023/07/28/biden-white-house-pressured-facebook-to-censor-lab-leak-posts/ https://reason.com/2023/07/28/biden-white-house-pressured-fa... One exmaple of many. If Biden doesn't want you seeing something, the white house will put pressure on social media companies to censor it.
      - wumeow 2y ago
Aloha 2y ago
I'm not seeing any issue with those voices finding a space elsewhere say on X/Twitter - believe me, I see enough of the slop over from it. The level of direct control the US Government has over US Social Media platforms pales in comparison to the control China has over TikTok.
- nebula8804 2y ago
  Why not both? As it stands X platform is run by a pathological liar that has cozied up to the ADL to get the activist Pro-Israel community off his back. Many users many not prefer to use that platform because of these issues. The more options for people the better. What people seem to be forgetting is that TikTok is not the only market player. To single them out is absurd in this context.
- nemothekid 2y ago
  Saying the word "cis" is enough to catch a ban on Twitter. Somehow in America, uncensored only means that far right white supremacists can say n**er freely.
- zeroonetwothree 2y ago
  After all there’s even a scotus case this term about the government merely “suggesting” that social media act a certain way.
hhjinks 2y ago
>TikTok has given an alternative voice to groups typically marginalized on pro-Western platforms This has to be substantiated, because it seems blatantly absurd on its face. Are you saying TikTok is an anti-western platform? That, in and of itself, justifies the divestment, considering the owner, no? Furthermore, what "pro-western" platforms are you talking about? I haven't seen anything from TikTok that wouldn't fly on discord or reddit, for example.
- nebula8804 2y ago
  It allows you to see content typically hidden on other platforms. There should be freedom of choice. Its not like TikTok is the only game in town so if you are that triggered by the content that is on there then you should just log onto Meta platforms and leave the settings to restrict certain political posts that they quietly pushed to the "ON" setting.
  - hhjinks 2y ago
    I asked you to substantiate it, not repeat exactly the same point again.
    - nebula8804 2y ago
      There is so much content supporting this thesis with a 5 second google search. [1]:https://www.hrw.org/report/2023/12/21/metas-broken-promises/systemic-censorship-palestine-content-instagram-and https://www.hrw.org/report/2023/12/21/metas-broken-promises/... As I have mentioned above and in other replies. Meta platforms has quietly introduced a filter for certain political topics that was pushed to their user base with no notification. [2]:https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/meta-limit-some-facebook-comments-israeli-palestinian-posts-2023-10-18/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/meta-limit-some-fa...
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- nemothekid 2y ago
nebula8804 2y ago
[flagged]

autoexec 2y ago

> Further, Chinese government officials would show up unannounced and plug shit into our networks, and required access to our encryption keys and accounts databases and employee & customer lists etc. This happens in the US too and has been happening for a very long time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A) only when it happens to US companies they get gag orders and/or paid off. (see https://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/jun/06/verizon-telephone-data-court-order https://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/jun/06/ve... and https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/report-att-cooperated-extensively-nsa-sharing-billions-phone-email-records https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/report-att-cooperated-... and https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/06/how-federal-government-buys-our-cell-phone-location-data https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/06/how-federal-government... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit) The content on tiktok is a problem, but there's nothing on tiktok that isn't also on facebook/reddit/twitter/youtube. The difference is that when the servers are in China the US government can't get that kind of access/cooperation.

Aloha 2y ago
While I'm not always thrilled that about the amount of monitoring United States Government does, as a United States Citizen, my government is at least marginally accountable to me - if enough of us are bothered by this policy, we can choose to elect representatives who will change it. I can't say that about China, certainly not to me as a United States Citizen, and not even really to Chinese Citizens either - which is why it's another thing entirely when a foreign government is doing this level of monitoring on United States Soil. China is welcome to monitor its own citizens on its own soil to the extent it desires - and monitor communications in and out of China - they're however not welcome to do that level of monitoring on United States Soil on anyone who resides here - at least not without the explicit consent of the United States Government.
- autoexec 2y ago
  > While I'm not always thrilled that about the amount of monitoring United States Government does, as a United States Citizen, my government is at least marginally accountable to me - if enough of us are bothered by this policy, we can choose to elect representatives who will change it. On the other hand it's our own ostensibly accountable government that we have to worry about violating our freedoms, abusing and misinterpreting this data, targeting innocent people, etc. If China has this kind of data they still have no power to throw me in prison (provided that I stay out of China) and very little impact on my day to day life. I'm still not happy about them collecting my data, but I have much less to fear from it.

mrtksn 2y ago

I know this is not straight up a ban but it is a ban. Maybe Musk will buy it for pennies ona dollar and will turn my TikTok feed to my Twitter feed, which is full of lunatics, conspiracy theories, racist, dog whistle racist, conman and Tesla boys. Maybe Zuck will buy it and will start showing hot girls, meals and tourist attractions like they do on Instagram? Since I'm not it the USA, maybe I will be able to use the global TikTok that I love. Hopefully. But this is not my main concern, my main concern is that you people act like everything is about business and the users are just cattle. 0 regards about the fact that lots and lots of people love this app. I'm one of them because its the last place on the internet where it feels like I'm not supposed to be outraged or spending money all the time. It feels like the old internet for me. Also, if the American users are lost, I will loose a lot of great content. I'm appalled that people here on HN have no ability to realize that they deal with real people and not only numbers in the analytics and the bank. It almost feels like there's no sense of identity here, no sese of persons who must have freedom to use and consume whatever they want. The argument goes "The Chinese are banning our social media companies, why would we do the same?". Why don't you rephrase it as "The Chinese communist part controls what apps and media the Chinese citizens can consume, why we don't control what Americans consume?". Can you really not see that taking away a product that people use is not only about companies? Are you really that blind to see that you can't claim being "the free world" by imitating China? Chinese government is not the ideal form of governance, please stop trying to be like China. Have some sense of personal freedoms.

Aloha 2y ago
I've watched people end up radicalized by content on TikTok - in ways that twitter, facebook, youtube, et al doesn't seem to do. You end up seeing the opening for a rabbit hole, and then suddenly you're very deep into said rabbit hole. I get your concerns over loss of something you enjoy - but the content is steerable enough by algorithm and addictive enough that a little twiddle of the knob, and suddenly a bunch of people believe some very harmful and hard to eliminate untruths.
- mrtksn 2y ago
  Really? People get radicalised on the American social media all the time. Then go shoot people, all the time. Numerous shootings were organised on 4Chan&similar. What did your radicalised ones did may I ask? I hope it's more than having the "wrong" opinions on hot topics. Can we please stop admiring China, Russia, DPRK and other similar countries where having the "wrong opinions" is considered radicalisation?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

asdasdsddd 2y ago

I think people are reticent to admit that unfettered globalism (especially in the internet which was meant to connect the world) is bad and has serious security implications. It should've been obvious retrospectively, but folks were lulled by a sense of post-soviet optimism.

BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
Im concerned this represents a more general trend towards severing the small connections between countries formed on things like social networks, and that in doing so we’re opening ourselves up to a public that will be more supportive of useless war.
- krapp 2y ago
  No. Stop. The public is only against war because Chinese spies are hypnotizing them with algorithms. You're not thinking clearly. The red menace is everywhere, you need to stay vigilant and focused.
- throw-the-towel 2y ago
  If anything, social networks will only fuel support for war, as we're seeing with Russia and Ukraine. Among the more liberal-minded Russians like me and most people I know back home, support for the Ukrainians had collapsed after two years of interacting with them online. It's become so bad, some people I met on the net have actually gone from opposing the war to volunteering to join the Russian army. And as for the Ukrainian side, their opinion of the common people of Russia is no better. Anyway, we had way more of the "small links" you mentioned than you guys will ever have with the Chinese. A lot of us have family on the other side, even more had good friends across the border. The war destroyed most of these connections, and in case the West and China fall into a war, I don't see any reason whatsoever for you to do any better.
  - BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
    I can’t argue with that. Why do you think the exposure leads to less or equal camaraderie? I know interpersonal exposure to groups tends to reduce dislike of those groups, so is it an issue with the medium?

segasaturn 2y ago

>and if they feel that is in their national interest, why can’t we return the favor when we feel it’s in our interest? By the looks of it, it seems like you want the US to be more like the CCP than the other way around. Imitating authoritarian governments harms America's global reputation for "freedom and democracy", if that reputation even still exists.

hot_gril 2y ago
I view it like trade. They block our social media there, we block theirs here. EU did the same when we put tariffs on their steel or something.
- jtriangle 2y ago
  And eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
  - tomatokoolaid 2y ago
    Yes, at least half blind. But an eye for nothing but complacence often results in two eyes for nothing ... and handing your adversary full advantage.
  - hot_gril 2y ago
    That saying applies to things you cannot take back, like blinding someone, not trade agreements. It's also like an eye for 200 eyes at this point. Tit-for-tat (or some softer variation) is pretty standard diplomatic protocol.
    - jtriangle 2y ago
      Sure, but can you take back banning a social media platform? Very likely not, because even if you did, it'd still be ruined by a massive loss of users/ad partners/etc. Realistically, what we needed is comprehensive user privacy legislation, which would prevent anyone from spying on us, including our own government. Likely the reason that did not happen is because our government enjoys access to our user data for various things.

turquoisevar 2y ago

I see variations of this argument pop up in this debate, which always confuses me. I’d expect the takeaway to be “That’s bad, so we shouldn’t do it” instead of “Hold my beer and let me show you how we can follow their example.” I always thought that the point was to not be like authoritarian countries.

j2kun 2y ago
> follow their example Nothing about this is following their example. It's saying, "if you do the bad thing we won't let you operate here."
brigadier132 2y ago
> I always thought that the point was to not be like authoritarian countries. No, the point is to not give authoritarian countries a free pass. This is like saying we shouldn't put people in jail for murder because it's effectively kidnapping and that would make us like them.
asadotzler 2y ago
Ever study game theory? Apparently not.