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China can and already has used tiktok to influence the U.S. population. Just because the US spies a bunch doesn’t mean we shouldn’t protect our best interests.

blackoil 2y ago
You misread OP. With all spies they should have found some evidence of CCP trying to influence.
- tempestn 2y ago
  They may well have done. It seems a lot of lawmakers moved toward the opinion of banning tiktok after receiving classified intelligence briefings.
  - luyu_wu 2y ago
    As a non-american (Canadian) citizen, I'm genuinely curious why this evidence can't be made public? Wouldn't that be a far better way to end this debate and un-fracture opinions?
    - tempestn 2y ago
      I'm Canadian too, but my guess would be that sharing what they know publicly would give away too much about how they learned it, and would give adversaries a better chance of hiding more in the future.
chamsom 2y ago
Please cite a well written study to back up your claim that is not an opinion piece or some state sanctioned message, from any country.
- j0ba 2y ago
  I'm writing one right now, just waiting on the CCP to get back to me with their internal communications and commit history at tiktok which will prove this. /s
  - chamsom 2y ago
    You contradict yourself by asserting "arbitrary action X, which will prove this" implying the party is guilty by mere speculation about unknowns.
    - j0ba 2y ago
      I never implied the party is guilty, although my prediction is that they are. My point is that it's impossible to prove what the commenter was asking for.
      - chamsom 2y ago
        "which will prove this" is not a prediction, it's an assertion of absolute truth.
- goliathDown 2y ago
  That's a bit of a ridiculous standard. Mostly because I don't think China is liable to hand out the records they've been gathering to cross check findings from other study.
  - chamsom 2y ago
    You don't need records conduct research if a specific message is being spread on TikTok against chance, to at least back up an unsubstantiated theory — even if not practical in the court of law. For anyone who uses TikTok regularly, it's evident there frequently political content that outright contradict's China's positions, spreading unfettered through the platform.
    - goliathDown 2y ago
      Even if there is zero evidence supporting an influence campaign on the platform, the ease of collecting user data or spying on users is something I would expect an active adversary to do. Like it or not, China and America are at odds with each other, and it's almost silly to assume that China would not be exploiting a successful tool for their own means.
- MaxHoppersGhost 2y ago
  They sent a push notification to every American user asking them to ask their congressman to not ban tiktok.
  - Thiez 2y ago
    That's hardly the subtle influence that we're all supposed to be afraid of. If that's the only example you cas come up with... that's not a strong case.
    - MaxHoppersGhost 2y ago
      That’s overt influence showing they aren’t afraid to use their muscle. Of course they’re willing to use more subtle messages. The same govt that screwed the entire world with Covid-19 will use tiktok for nefarious purposes. This isn’t a stretch.
- CapricornNoble 2y ago
  Does this count? https://www.amazon.com/Unrestricted-Warfare-Chinese-Wang-Xiangsui https://www.amazon.com/Unrestricted-Warfare-Chinese-Wang-Xia... How does someone do data collection on how the Chinese government weaponizes a social media platform? That would almost certainly involve Tailored Access Operations (or whatever they are calling offensive cyber warfare these days), not only of questionable legality but definitely compromising the sort of Tactics/Techniques/Procedures you REALLY don't want made public.
autoexec 2y ago
As if US apps don't influence the population of other nations. Should every US company be required to divest in every other nation where they have users?
- jimbob45 2y ago
  Came here to say this. The US owns Apple and Google, both of which are tremendously more influential than TikTok could ever hope to be. Turnabout is fair play.
  - Grazester 2y ago
    Google is banned in China and China is already taking steps to limit use of Apple hardware
    - autoexec 2y ago
      Google left China because they didn't want to play by China's rules. Whatever their motivations, I'm glad google stood up to them, but we're not even accusing China of refusing to follow any particular US law. I don't think the US getting our own version of the Great Firewall of China is a good thing.
      - Aloisius 2y ago
        And TikTok is free to leave if they don't want to play by our rules that companies with large numbers of American users can't be substantially owned or controlled by a foreign adversary and still do business with US companies. Also, who said we're going to firewall them?
  - luckydata 2y ago
    see, this is what is great about soft power. If you use it right who is not straight up an enemy will probably give you a lot of leeway as long as mutually beneficial. China is... not doing that. The Tik Tok ban is years late and I don't know why any US citizen could not understand why it's the right thing to do, unless on the payroll of the Chinese government.
JohnMakin 2y ago
They use Meta systems to do the same thing? What is special about Tiktok?
- j0ba 2y ago
  They control what is boosted on tiktok
  - JohnMakin 2y ago
    Do you have any evidence of that?
    - j0ba 2y ago
      https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2023/01/20/tiktoks-secret-heating-button-can-make-anyone-go-viral/?sh=28c12bd26bfd https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2023/01/20/tik...
      - JohnMakin 2y ago
        This is a common practice on social media sites and is not evidence for your claim.
tedivm 2y ago
We should block the behavior, not target specific companies or groups because we don't like them. If influencing our elections is bad (and I agree it is) then we should ban corporations from influencing our elections. If we think collecting and aggregating a bunch of data on people is bad we should ban that, rather than picking a single company to ban from doing it while allowing a bunch of others too. I actually truly believe we should do this- a GDPR style bill for the US that protects people's right to privacy and limits corporations ability to influence our governments. The fact that we know how easy it is for companies to do this but are just upset that a specific company is doing it tells me we're approaching this in the wrong way.
- zeroonetwothree 2y ago
  How could we ensure that ByteDance follows such a law? It’s unlikely they would let us perform the necessary level of auditing. I’m not against such a privacy law but I think it’s orthogonal to the TikTok issue.

blackoil 2y ago

You misread OP. With all spies they should have found some evidence of CCP trying to influence.

tempestn 2y ago
They may well have done. It seems a lot of lawmakers moved toward the opinion of banning tiktok after receiving classified intelligence briefings.
- luyu_wu 2y ago
  As a non-american (Canadian) citizen, I'm genuinely curious why this evidence can't be made public? Wouldn't that be a far better way to end this debate and un-fracture opinions?
  - tempestn 2y ago
    I'm Canadian too, but my guess would be that sharing what they know publicly would give away too much about how they learned it, and would give adversaries a better chance of hiding more in the future.

chamsom 2y ago

Please cite a well written study to back up your claim that is not an opinion piece or some state sanctioned message, from any country.

j0ba 2y ago
I'm writing one right now, just waiting on the CCP to get back to me with their internal communications and commit history at tiktok which will prove this. /s
- chamsom 2y ago
  You contradict yourself by asserting "arbitrary action X, which will prove this" implying the party is guilty by mere speculation about unknowns.
  - j0ba 2y ago
    I never implied the party is guilty, although my prediction is that they are. My point is that it's impossible to prove what the commenter was asking for.
    - chamsom 2y ago
      "which will prove this" is not a prediction, it's an assertion of absolute truth.
goliathDown 2y ago
That's a bit of a ridiculous standard. Mostly because I don't think China is liable to hand out the records they've been gathering to cross check findings from other study.
- chamsom 2y ago
  You don't need records conduct research if a specific message is being spread on TikTok against chance, to at least back up an unsubstantiated theory — even if not practical in the court of law. For anyone who uses TikTok regularly, it's evident there frequently political content that outright contradict's China's positions, spreading unfettered through the platform.
  - goliathDown 2y ago
    Even if there is zero evidence supporting an influence campaign on the platform, the ease of collecting user data or spying on users is something I would expect an active adversary to do. Like it or not, China and America are at odds with each other, and it's almost silly to assume that China would not be exploiting a successful tool for their own means.
MaxHoppersGhost 2y ago
They sent a push notification to every American user asking them to ask their congressman to not ban tiktok.
- Thiez 2y ago
  That's hardly the subtle influence that we're all supposed to be afraid of. If that's the only example you cas come up with... that's not a strong case.
  - MaxHoppersGhost 2y ago
    That’s overt influence showing they aren’t afraid to use their muscle. Of course they’re willing to use more subtle messages. The same govt that screwed the entire world with Covid-19 will use tiktok for nefarious purposes. This isn’t a stretch.
CapricornNoble 2y ago
Does this count? https://www.amazon.com/Unrestricted-Warfare-Chinese-Wang-Xiangsui https://www.amazon.com/Unrestricted-Warfare-Chinese-Wang-Xia... How does someone do data collection on how the Chinese government weaponizes a social media platform? That would almost certainly involve Tailored Access Operations (or whatever they are calling offensive cyber warfare these days), not only of questionable legality but definitely compromising the sort of Tactics/Techniques/Procedures you REALLY don't want made public.

autoexec 2y ago

As if US apps don't influence the population of other nations. Should every US company be required to divest in every other nation where they have users?

jimbob45 2y ago
Came here to say this. The US owns Apple and Google, both of which are tremendously more influential than TikTok could ever hope to be. Turnabout is fair play.
- Grazester 2y ago
  Google is banned in China and China is already taking steps to limit use of Apple hardware
  - autoexec 2y ago
    Google left China because they didn't want to play by China's rules. Whatever their motivations, I'm glad google stood up to them, but we're not even accusing China of refusing to follow any particular US law. I don't think the US getting our own version of the Great Firewall of China is a good thing.
    - Aloisius 2y ago
      And TikTok is free to leave if they don't want to play by our rules that companies with large numbers of American users can't be substantially owned or controlled by a foreign adversary and still do business with US companies. Also, who said we're going to firewall them?
- luckydata 2y ago
  see, this is what is great about soft power. If you use it right who is not straight up an enemy will probably give you a lot of leeway as long as mutually beneficial. China is... not doing that. The Tik Tok ban is years late and I don't know why any US citizen could not understand why it's the right thing to do, unless on the payroll of the Chinese government.

JohnMakin 2y ago

They use Meta systems to do the same thing? What is special about Tiktok?

j0ba 2y ago
They control what is boosted on tiktok
- JohnMakin 2y ago
  Do you have any evidence of that?
  - j0ba 2y ago
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2023/01/20/tiktoks-secret-heating-button-can-make-anyone-go-viral/?sh=28c12bd26bfd https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2023/01/20/tik...
    - JohnMakin 2y ago
      This is a common practice on social media sites and is not evidence for your claim.

tedivm 2y ago

We should block the behavior, not target specific companies or groups because we don't like them. If influencing our elections is bad (and I agree it is) then we should ban corporations from influencing our elections. If we think collecting and aggregating a bunch of data on people is bad we should ban that, rather than picking a single company to ban from doing it while allowing a bunch of others too. I actually truly believe we should do this- a GDPR style bill for the US that protects people's right to privacy and limits corporations ability to influence our governments. The fact that we know how easy it is for companies to do this but are just upset that a specific company is doing it tells me we're approaching this in the wrong way.

zeroonetwothree 2y ago
How could we ensure that ByteDance follows such a law? It’s unlikely they would let us perform the necessary level of auditing. I’m not against such a privacy law but I think it’s orthogonal to the TikTok issue.