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I don't consider any of your extreme examples as "a sincere attempt to help". Maybe I should rephrase it as "sincere, reasonable attempt to help". I guess the

I don't consider any of your extreme examples as "a sincere attempt to help". Maybe I should rephrase it as "sincere, reasonable attempt to help". I guess there is also a distinction to be made between problems to be solved, and currently acceptable, non-problematic situations where you receive unsolicited advice on how to improve it.

kayodelycaon 2y ago
The problem with unsolicited advice is: 1. I didn't ask for it. 2. They didn't bother to understand the problem. 3. Now I am socially obligated to talk to them. 4. I have stop everything I'm thinking about to figure out how to respond to them in a way that doesn't make them feel bad. This seems grossly unfair to me. Social norms that don't come naturally to me. They are allowed say anything they want and I'm not allowed to reject it.
- lazide 2y ago
  You could also go the ‘autistic’ route - Frown, and walk away while they’re talking. Or Deeply analyze why they’re wrong and they know it. In front of them, where they can hear you do it. You’ll get hate, but what else is new? You could also just lie, say ‘oh that’s good advice’ and then ignore it like most normal people. Or, figure out what painful personal failure they are trying to warn you about from their side, with no real solution they’ve been able to figure out. And see if there is some lesson you can learn from it. Wait, am I giving unsolicited advice now?
  - kayodelycaon 2y ago
    I would like to point you to #2. :) I understand what neurotypical people feel but I am unable to predict it without logical analysis. Thus, I fully understand social norms but I am not capable of following them in realtime. Absolutely none of your unsolicited advice is even remotely useful to me because my current strategy of building logic trees and memorizing appropriate responses is far superior to anything you suggest. :P
    - lazide 2y ago
      And yet.... You're not happy, because you're here complaining about it. So perhaps it isn't as superior as you want to believe? QED. (As someone who does the same sometimes, like apparently right now. Sorry.)
      - kayodelycaon 2y ago
        That has no bearing on this entire discussion. I am not happy I have to play by social norms. However, playing by those norms is the optimal solution in maintaining important relationships with people I care about.
        lazide 2y ago
        Ah, but it is directly applicable no? Showing the issue, even. Why do you care about relationships at all except for your short/long term emotional needs, safety, etc? Because #2 then is not actually optimal or perfect then for that stated goal, correct? It isn’t playing to social norms. #3 and #4 tend to produce better outcomes in that sense. And #4 also can provide useful contextual information on a person, which is necessary for having a real relationship with them. So isn’t hating these kinds of interactions, actually hating the difficulty you have in meeting emotional/relationship needs naturally? Instead of having of do exhausting rational work all the time while emotionally disliking (or even hating) it for reasons that are nearly impossible to see? And this discussion is me demonstrating that. Because now you hate me, eh? But not because I’m wrong. But because it’s a truth you don’t know how to change or make better, and for which knowing makes it more painful - as it strips away the comforting self image. Interestingly, despite what folks say, this also appears to be why a lot of people get so angry when someone offers unsolicited advice. Because it’s often a solution that could work, if it wasn’t for the problem they had that they can’t seem to fix - because it hurts too much even seeing it.
        kayodelycaon 2y ago
        > Why do you care about relationships at all except for your short/long term emotional needs, safety, etc? Because I care about people as people. They have their own lives. Their existence isn't defined by their utility to me. I just can't instinctively navigate verbal communication and social norms. I had to learn everything through logical analysis, which is very slow and difficult to apply in real time. It's no different than if I had a significant speech impediment. My dislike of social norms is solely due to the barriers it creates to communication. And no, I don't hate you. I'm just frustrated with the assumptions you're making.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
    Yeah, but your advice is actually useful :-)
omoikane 2y ago
Often, the problem is with the persons offering the solution not seeing things from the perspective of the people receiving them. The helper felt that they were sincere in their intent, but their intentions aren't always desirable. Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_road_to_hell_is_paved_with_good_intentions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_road_to_hell_is_paved_with... https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Verschlimmbesserung https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Verschlimmbesserung

kayodelycaon 2y ago

The problem with unsolicited advice is: 1. I didn't ask for it. 2. They didn't bother to understand the problem. 3. Now I am socially obligated to talk to them. 4. I have stop everything I'm thinking about to figure out how to respond to them in a way that doesn't make them feel bad. This seems grossly unfair to me. Social norms that don't come naturally to me. They are allowed say anything they want and I'm not allowed to reject it.

lazide 2y ago
You could also go the ‘autistic’ route - Frown, and walk away while they’re talking. Or Deeply analyze why they’re wrong and they know it. In front of them, where they can hear you do it. You’ll get hate, but what else is new? You could also just lie, say ‘oh that’s good advice’ and then ignore it like most normal people. Or, figure out what painful personal failure they are trying to warn you about from their side, with no real solution they’ve been able to figure out. And see if there is some lesson you can learn from it. Wait, am I giving unsolicited advice now?
- kayodelycaon 2y ago
  I would like to point you to #2. :) I understand what neurotypical people feel but I am unable to predict it without logical analysis. Thus, I fully understand social norms but I am not capable of following them in realtime. Absolutely none of your unsolicited advice is even remotely useful to me because my current strategy of building logic trees and memorizing appropriate responses is far superior to anything you suggest. :P
  - lazide 2y ago
    And yet.... You're not happy, because you're here complaining about it. So perhaps it isn't as superior as you want to believe? QED. (As someone who does the same sometimes, like apparently right now. Sorry.)
    - kayodelycaon 2y ago
      That has no bearing on this entire discussion. I am not happy I have to play by social norms. However, playing by those norms is the optimal solution in maintaining important relationships with people I care about.
      - lazide 2y ago
        Ah, but it is directly applicable no? Showing the issue, even. Why do you care about relationships at all except for your short/long term emotional needs, safety, etc? Because #2 then is not actually optimal or perfect then for that stated goal, correct? It isn’t playing to social norms. #3 and #4 tend to produce better outcomes in that sense. And #4 also can provide useful contextual information on a person, which is necessary for having a real relationship with them. So isn’t hating these kinds of interactions, actually hating the difficulty you have in meeting emotional/relationship needs naturally? Instead of having of do exhausting rational work all the time while emotionally disliking (or even hating) it for reasons that are nearly impossible to see? And this discussion is me demonstrating that. Because now you hate me, eh? But not because I’m wrong. But because it’s a truth you don’t know how to change or make better, and for which knowing makes it more painful - as it strips away the comforting self image. Interestingly, despite what folks say, this also appears to be why a lot of people get so angry when someone offers unsolicited advice. Because it’s often a solution that could work, if it wasn’t for the problem they had that they can’t seem to fix - because it hurts too much even seeing it.
        kayodelycaon 2y ago
        > Why do you care about relationships at all except for your short/long term emotional needs, safety, etc? Because I care about people as people. They have their own lives. Their existence isn't defined by their utility to me. I just can't instinctively navigate verbal communication and social norms. I had to learn everything through logical analysis, which is very slow and difficult to apply in real time. It's no different than if I had a significant speech impediment. My dislike of social norms is solely due to the barriers it creates to communication. And no, I don't hate you. I'm just frustrated with the assumptions you're making.
- HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
  Yeah, but your advice is actually useful :-)

omoikane 2y ago

Often, the problem is with the persons offering the solution not seeing things from the perspective of the people receiving them. The helper felt that they were sincere in their intent, but their intentions aren't always desirable. Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_road_to_hell_is_paved_with_good_intentions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_road_to_hell_is_paved_with... https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Verschlimmbesserung https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Verschlimmbesserung