4 ms·

How are co-ops anti-capitalist? They appear to me no different than a shareholder or partnership. Are most law firms socialistic in that they have partners who

How are co-ops anti-capitalist? They appear to me no different than a shareholder or partnership. Are most law firms socialistic in that they have partners who work for the firm getting a share of its profits?

anon291 2y ago
They're objectively not any less capitalist than a private company with restrictions on share transfers.
thesuitonym 2y ago
The workers own the means of production. That's the only thing that socialism means.
- rybosworld 2y ago
  This is completely incorrect.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - greenie_beans 2y ago
    how is "socializing" the ownership of a business not socialist?
    - rybosworld 2y ago
      The business ownership in a coop is not "socialized". It's still privately owned. The definition of socialism is not, and never has been, "workers owning the means of production." A coop still meets all the characteristics of capitalist entity: - privately owned - for profit, with profits going to shareholders If you think coops are socialist, then you must also think any company that has more than 1 shareholder is socialist. If you think private ownership (which coops protect and uphold) is allowed under socialism, then you don't understand what socialism is.
      - greenie_beans 2y ago
        your opinion about the semantics of "coop" and "socialism" is wrong. most semantic debates are worthless anyway. every socialist i know and have read agree that a coop is a socialist organization, and we will keep creating these enterprises as an alternative to capitalism, until one day, ideally, the capitalist corporations won't be able to compete in the job market with the coops, forcing them to socialize their ownership and power structures. despite whether you think it's socialism or not. here are the 7 cooperative principles. please explain how this is capitalism? https://www.electric.coop/seven-cooperative-principles%E2%80%8B https://www.electric.coop/seven-cooperative-principles%E2%80...
        rybosworld 2y ago
        There's no semantics. > every socialist i know and have read agree that a coop is a socialist organization Every unicorn I know thinks leprechauns are real. A coop protects and upholds private ownership and distribution of profits to their shareholders. That's not semantics. Socialism does not protect private ownership. Socialism does not distribute profits to shareholders (because there are none). That's also not semantics. If you want to have a non-semantical conversation, the onus is on you.
        greenie_beans 2y ago
        ok, well you have no idea what you're talking about, so if you think that a coop is capitalism, then i'm gonna use that ignorance to my advantage, and convince everybody that coops are capitalism. psyop coops on the capitalists. thanks for the great strategic idea!
        rybosworld 2y ago
        My guess is that someone who thinks private, for-profit businesses are socialist, will not gain much traction convincing anyone of anything. But best of luck! If you can explain to me how a co-op, which is a privately owned, and for-profit business structure, is not capitalist, I am all ears. P.s. Definitions are important. Hand waving them away as "semantics" is a common trick of the ignorant.
- gadflyinyoureye 2y ago
  a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole The community is normal understood as the complete body politic. A partnership is not socialistic. Lawyers are capitalistic in most books, but they have partnerships. The organization of a business doesn’t matter in capitalism. Capitalism, boiled down to private property and market. A co-op competing with other companies largely without price control is just as capitalistic as IBM or Google.
greenie_beans 2y ago
"capitalism" is simply a way to organize an enterprise. an enterprise can participate in a market without structuring the organization as a capitalist enterprise. free market != capitalism. american-style capitalism consists of a political system that supports the capitalist enterprise structure.
- gadflyinyoureye 2y ago
  Definition of capitalism: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit. The private owner here is a co-op. Not socialist.
  - greenie_beans 2y ago
    this is wrong. see my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40145796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40145796
dbingham 2y ago
Because labor is calling the shots and reaping the benefits, not the capital investors.

anon291 2y ago

They're objectively not any less capitalist than a private company with restrictions on share transfers.

thesuitonym 2y ago

The workers own the means of production. That's the only thing that socialism means.

rybosworld 2y ago
This is completely incorrect.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- greenie_beans 2y ago
  how is "socializing" the ownership of a business not socialist?
  - rybosworld 2y ago
    The business ownership in a coop is not "socialized". It's still privately owned. The definition of socialism is not, and never has been, "workers owning the means of production." A coop still meets all the characteristics of capitalist entity: - privately owned - for profit, with profits going to shareholders If you think coops are socialist, then you must also think any company that has more than 1 shareholder is socialist. If you think private ownership (which coops protect and uphold) is allowed under socialism, then you don't understand what socialism is.
    - greenie_beans 2y ago
      your opinion about the semantics of "coop" and "socialism" is wrong. most semantic debates are worthless anyway. every socialist i know and have read agree that a coop is a socialist organization, and we will keep creating these enterprises as an alternative to capitalism, until one day, ideally, the capitalist corporations won't be able to compete in the job market with the coops, forcing them to socialize their ownership and power structures. despite whether you think it's socialism or not. here are the 7 cooperative principles. please explain how this is capitalism? https://www.electric.coop/seven-cooperative-principles%E2%80%8B https://www.electric.coop/seven-cooperative-principles%E2%80...
      - rybosworld 2y ago
        There's no semantics. > every socialist i know and have read agree that a coop is a socialist organization Every unicorn I know thinks leprechauns are real. A coop protects and upholds private ownership and distribution of profits to their shareholders. That's not semantics. Socialism does not protect private ownership. Socialism does not distribute profits to shareholders (because there are none). That's also not semantics. If you want to have a non-semantical conversation, the onus is on you.
        greenie_beans 2y ago
        ok, well you have no idea what you're talking about, so if you think that a coop is capitalism, then i'm gonna use that ignorance to my advantage, and convince everybody that coops are capitalism. psyop coops on the capitalists. thanks for the great strategic idea!
        rybosworld 2y ago
        My guess is that someone who thinks private, for-profit businesses are socialist, will not gain much traction convincing anyone of anything. But best of luck! If you can explain to me how a co-op, which is a privately owned, and for-profit business structure, is not capitalist, I am all ears. P.s. Definitions are important. Hand waving them away as "semantics" is a common trick of the ignorant.
gadflyinyoureye 2y ago
a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole The community is normal understood as the complete body politic. A partnership is not socialistic. Lawyers are capitalistic in most books, but they have partnerships. The organization of a business doesn’t matter in capitalism. Capitalism, boiled down to private property and market. A co-op competing with other companies largely without price control is just as capitalistic as IBM or Google.

greenie_beans 2y ago

"capitalism" is simply a way to organize an enterprise. an enterprise can participate in a market without structuring the organization as a capitalist enterprise. free market != capitalism. american-style capitalism consists of a political system that supports the capitalist enterprise structure.

gadflyinyoureye 2y ago
Definition of capitalism: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit. The private owner here is a co-op. Not socialist.
- greenie_beans 2y ago
  this is wrong. see my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40145796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40145796

dbingham 2y ago

Because labor is calling the shots and reaping the benefits, not the capital investors.