5 ms·

My general experience is often people think problems are easy to solve from the outside because they just don't understand the problem. Thus you can often find

My general experience is often people think problems are easy to solve from the outside because they just don't understand the problem. Thus you can often find communities of people with disabilities who understand the problems and the people from the outside who offer insulting and simple solutions to the problems. As soon as someone falls from group B into group A the problems stop becoming simple and easily soluble though.

mft_ 3y ago
I agree with you, although his first point is a subset of this, I think. In reality, it's something like "they don't understand the problem space", which includes not just not understanding the problem itself, but also understanding the history, context, and realistic daily details of the problem, and the real or imagined blocks that are created by personal philosophy, mindset, and psychology, plus the impact of relationships, biases, etc...
- throwway120385 3y ago
  As an example of "not understanding the problem space" it's mind-blowing sometimes to think about how a disability is only a disability in the context of a particular way of living. If you're confined to a wheelchair and all the work surfaces and other affordances are above neck level for you, then it's a disability. But if those work surfaces are moved and extra space provided it's not a disability in that environment. It's just that people outside of a wheelchair can't identify the little assumptions and design features that accommodate them because they're the default in our culture.
richrichie 3y ago
It goes both ways. And some times it is simple that the insider cannot see for a host of reasons. Outsider can spot a simple solution because they dont have self imposed constraints that come from being on the inside for long.
- jprete 3y ago
  The insider constraints are real, though. Sometimes they're self-imposed, and that can be for good reasons (value system, long-term goals) or bad reasons (emotionally stuck, a disproportionate fear of small risks, etc.).
  - richrichie 3y ago
    Agree, valid points.
PopAlongKid 3y ago
>Thus you can often find communities of people with disabilities I find it odd to immediately distill this down to "group A with disabilities" and "group B without". Both groups have problems, maybe just different ones. I also don't see what is insulting about making a sincere attempt to help, whether it ends up being helpful or not.
- WJW 3y ago
  The insulting bit comes when people with an insufficient understanding of the problem come in and offer "solutions" that anyone could have dreamed up in 5 minutes, thereby implying that the new person either thinks the group with the problem is stupid for not coming up with such an obvious solution themselves. It's often the grown-up equivalent of a child learning about a longstanding religious conflict and offering "why don't they just all be friends instead" as a solution.
  - andrelaszlo 3y ago
    Why can't they (we) though? :(
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    There are exceptions, though. For example, my advice is always welcome and apropos.
- kayodelycaon 3y ago
  > I also don't see what is insulting about making a sincere attempt to help, whether it ends up being helpful or not. It's the equivalent of people wanting to escort you across a road without getting run over. They don't think you're capable of understanding the risks of crossing a road. Or giving someone in a wheelchair tips on how to walk normally. Or your completely tech illiterate grandparent telling you how to write code. (Yes, this has happened to me.) A lot of people I've dealt with have no interest understanding the problem. They just want to do the easy thing that feels good to them. When what they expect doesn't happen, they feel bad and expect me to make them feel better. Similarly, this pattern always happens around food. It's not uncommon I can't eat any of the food at a social event. I'm used to that and I'm not bothered by it. But everyone else feels bad for me and decides to tell me so. No matter how much I say I'm fine, they keep apologizing because they feel guilty. Of course, I can't tell them to stop making their feelings my problem.
jprete 3y ago
This is my thought as well. The author means well but doesn't know what he doesn't know. Simple answers look good from the outside because it's hard to explain (and understand) all the constraints on a good solution.
JohnFen 3y ago
> My general experience is often people think problems are easy to solve from the outside because they just don't understand the problem. This. And not just for personal problems. I have a rule when I start working in a new place to not offer any real criticisms or unsolicited advice for the first year. This is because it's very likely that my advice is too naive and is coming from a place of being ignorant of some aspect of the work that is the reason why people are doing something "wrong" in the first place. Being there for a year is enough to clue me in to those hidden variables so that I can make recommendations that have a chance of being useful.
- samus 3y ago
  I think you might doing some disservice by not pointing out such things. Outsider's perspective can be very valuable to improve processes. Even if there are good reasons why things are how they are, you'll find out much faster why. Contrary to when interacting with people where advice is often simply not wanted, you are pretty much paid to treat an organization's problem as your own. Sometimes problems persist because people simply have stopped caring about them. I think the most common reason might be toxic or ineffective management, fighting their own problems, real or imagined. Newcomers should read the room whether that's the case as fast as possible since in that case offering "solutions" could indeed be counterproductive or outright dangerous to one's career.
  - okwhateverdude 3y ago
    > I think the most common reason might be toxic or ineffective management, fighting their own problems, real or imagined. Newcomers should read the room whether that's the case as fast as possible since in that case offering "solutions" could indeed be counterproductive or outright dangerous to one's career. This. I am currently facing such a problem having very recently joined a new company. They recently had a very expensive incident and would like to not repeat it. I was handed an analysis task for the system that caused the incident with the expectation for me to make recommendations to improve the reliability. And, so far, my recommendation would be to refactor/rewrite large chunks of it (reduce cyclomatic complexity, greater test coverage and from the perspective of use cases, strict exception handling, fully documented state chart with all transitions validated, etc). When I gave a status update on my analysis that isn't finished yet, my manager was concerned that I would recommend exactly what I am going to recommend. So now I am kinda stuck. Do I openly say exactly what they don't want to hear even if I was tasked to do exactly that? Luckily, I don't really give a shit about "career" nonsense, I am too old for that. But at the same time, I do want to build credibility and social capital in this org. My experience in building highly scalable, resilient systems says that the current implementation is sub par, and it shows with amount of break-fix work the team is constantly doing. I don't really want to be Cassandra and say "If you don't do this, the risk of another catastrophic error is really high". And I don't have enough data or time in the org to know what kind of persuasive arguments tend to find sympathetic ears. So I have to gamble a bit, follow my principles, and honestly explain why their system is shit, in palatable terms, and hope they don't give me the boot. It is stressful and I hate it.
ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
> My general experience is often people think problems are easy to solve from the outside because they just don't understand the problem. There's an old H. L. Mencken quote: "There’s always an easy solution to every human problem; Neat, plausible and wrong." And another one of my faves: "The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake."
WalterBright 3y ago
> often people think problems are easy to solve from the outside because they just don't understand the problem May I suggest the book "The Innovators Dilemma". Sometimes people who don't understand the problem manage to solve it in a much better way. https://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Technologies-Management-Innovation/dp/1633691780/ https://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Technologies-Manag...
- rovolo 3y ago
  The "better ways" listed in this book were often worse at the metrics the old solution was targeting. They won out because they gained flexibility by loosening requirements. Personal computers were worse than minicomputers, but they were so much cheaper that they largely won out. The book is focused on the solution provider, not the consumer. The old providers lose out because they don't understand what the consumer values. OP is saying that the provider may be misunderstand the problem the consumer has when they offer a simple solution.
vonwoodson 3y ago
"""people think problems are easy to solve from the outside because they just don't understand the problem""" This is called [The Dunning–Kruger effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect).

mft_ 3y ago

I agree with you, although his first point is a subset of this, I think. In reality, it's something like "they don't understand the problem space", which includes not just not understanding the problem itself, but also understanding the history, context, and realistic daily details of the problem, and the real or imagined blocks that are created by personal philosophy, mindset, and psychology, plus the impact of relationships, biases, etc...

throwway120385 3y ago
As an example of "not understanding the problem space" it's mind-blowing sometimes to think about how a disability is only a disability in the context of a particular way of living. If you're confined to a wheelchair and all the work surfaces and other affordances are above neck level for you, then it's a disability. But if those work surfaces are moved and extra space provided it's not a disability in that environment. It's just that people outside of a wheelchair can't identify the little assumptions and design features that accommodate them because they're the default in our culture.

richrichie 3y ago

It goes both ways. And some times it is simple that the insider cannot see for a host of reasons. Outsider can spot a simple solution because they dont have self imposed constraints that come from being on the inside for long.

jprete 3y ago
The insider constraints are real, though. Sometimes they're self-imposed, and that can be for good reasons (value system, long-term goals) or bad reasons (emotionally stuck, a disproportionate fear of small risks, etc.).
- richrichie 3y ago
  Agree, valid points.

PopAlongKid 3y ago

>Thus you can often find communities of people with disabilities I find it odd to immediately distill this down to "group A with disabilities" and "group B without". Both groups have problems, maybe just different ones. I also don't see what is insulting about making a sincere attempt to help, whether it ends up being helpful or not.

WJW 3y ago
The insulting bit comes when people with an insufficient understanding of the problem come in and offer "solutions" that anyone could have dreamed up in 5 minutes, thereby implying that the new person either thinks the group with the problem is stupid for not coming up with such an obvious solution themselves. It's often the grown-up equivalent of a child learning about a longstanding religious conflict and offering "why don't they just all be friends instead" as a solution.
- andrelaszlo 3y ago
  Why can't they (we) though? :(
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- WalterBright 3y ago
  There are exceptions, though. For example, my advice is always welcome and apropos.
kayodelycaon 3y ago
> I also don't see what is insulting about making a sincere attempt to help, whether it ends up being helpful or not. It's the equivalent of people wanting to escort you across a road without getting run over. They don't think you're capable of understanding the risks of crossing a road. Or giving someone in a wheelchair tips on how to walk normally. Or your completely tech illiterate grandparent telling you how to write code. (Yes, this has happened to me.) A lot of people I've dealt with have no interest understanding the problem. They just want to do the easy thing that feels good to them. When what they expect doesn't happen, they feel bad and expect me to make them feel better. Similarly, this pattern always happens around food. It's not uncommon I can't eat any of the food at a social event. I'm used to that and I'm not bothered by it. But everyone else feels bad for me and decides to tell me so. No matter how much I say I'm fine, they keep apologizing because they feel guilty. Of course, I can't tell them to stop making their feelings my problem.

jprete 3y ago

This is my thought as well. The author means well but doesn't know what he doesn't know. Simple answers look good from the outside because it's hard to explain (and understand) all the constraints on a good solution.

JohnFen 3y ago

> My general experience is often people think problems are easy to solve from the outside because they just don't understand the problem. This. And not just for personal problems. I have a rule when I start working in a new place to not offer any real criticisms or unsolicited advice for the first year. This is because it's very likely that my advice is too naive and is coming from a place of being ignorant of some aspect of the work that is the reason why people are doing something "wrong" in the first place. Being there for a year is enough to clue me in to those hidden variables so that I can make recommendations that have a chance of being useful.

samus 3y ago
I think you might doing some disservice by not pointing out such things. Outsider's perspective can be very valuable to improve processes. Even if there are good reasons why things are how they are, you'll find out much faster why. Contrary to when interacting with people where advice is often simply not wanted, you are pretty much paid to treat an organization's problem as your own. Sometimes problems persist because people simply have stopped caring about them. I think the most common reason might be toxic or ineffective management, fighting their own problems, real or imagined. Newcomers should read the room whether that's the case as fast as possible since in that case offering "solutions" could indeed be counterproductive or outright dangerous to one's career.
- okwhateverdude 3y ago
  > I think the most common reason might be toxic or ineffective management, fighting their own problems, real or imagined. Newcomers should read the room whether that's the case as fast as possible since in that case offering "solutions" could indeed be counterproductive or outright dangerous to one's career. This. I am currently facing such a problem having very recently joined a new company. They recently had a very expensive incident and would like to not repeat it. I was handed an analysis task for the system that caused the incident with the expectation for me to make recommendations to improve the reliability. And, so far, my recommendation would be to refactor/rewrite large chunks of it (reduce cyclomatic complexity, greater test coverage and from the perspective of use cases, strict exception handling, fully documented state chart with all transitions validated, etc). When I gave a status update on my analysis that isn't finished yet, my manager was concerned that I would recommend exactly what I am going to recommend. So now I am kinda stuck. Do I openly say exactly what they don't want to hear even if I was tasked to do exactly that? Luckily, I don't really give a shit about "career" nonsense, I am too old for that. But at the same time, I do want to build credibility and social capital in this org. My experience in building highly scalable, resilient systems says that the current implementation is sub par, and it shows with amount of break-fix work the team is constantly doing. I don't really want to be Cassandra and say "If you don't do this, the risk of another catastrophic error is really high". And I don't have enough data or time in the org to know what kind of persuasive arguments tend to find sympathetic ears. So I have to gamble a bit, follow my principles, and honestly explain why their system is shit, in palatable terms, and hope they don't give me the boot. It is stressful and I hate it.

ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago

> My general experience is often people think problems are easy to solve from the outside because they just don't understand the problem. There's an old H. L. Mencken quote: "There’s always an easy solution to every human problem; Neat, plausible and wrong." And another one of my faves: "The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake."

WalterBright 3y ago

> often people think problems are easy to solve from the outside because they just don't understand the problem May I suggest the book "The Innovators Dilemma". Sometimes people who don't understand the problem manage to solve it in a much better way. https://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Technologies-Management-Innovation/dp/1633691780/ https://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Technologies-Manag...

rovolo 3y ago
The "better ways" listed in this book were often worse at the metrics the old solution was targeting. They won out because they gained flexibility by loosening requirements. Personal computers were worse than minicomputers, but they were so much cheaper that they largely won out. The book is focused on the solution provider, not the consumer. The old providers lose out because they don't understand what the consumer values. OP is saying that the provider may be misunderstand the problem the consumer has when they offer a simple solution.

vonwoodson 3y ago

"""people think problems are easy to solve from the outside because they just don't understand the problem""" This is called [The Dunning–Kruger effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect).