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Giving away an awesome mail service for free to the world is not evil. Being too busy to support every Tom, Dick and Harry that has problems with it is also no

by bmelton 14y ago

Giving away an awesome mail service for free to the world is not evil. Being too busy to support every Tom, Dick and Harry that has problems with it is also not evil. An analogy: "Hey Tom, I'm not using this rake any more. Would you like to have it? I'll give it to you." "Sure Dick. Thanks, this is a very nice rake indeed." The rake breaks. "Hey Dick. The rake doesn't work any more. Come over here and fix it." "Sorry Tom, I can't do that. I'm busy raking my lawn." "I hate you Dick, because you are evil." It's been said numerous times in this thread -- if you want support, you pay for it. If your email account isn't important enough to you to pay for it, then you don't really have much grounds to gripe if it breaks. I don't see how that makes anyone evil.

Karunamon 14y ago
> if you want support, you pay for it. That's no excuse to provide a shitty service. For 99% of people GMail is not shitty and is infact quite awesome. That doesn't change the fact that with the amount of people Google has, not having even a queue for people to get minor issues fixed (Freaking MICROSOFT can get this right, for crying out loud!!) is ridiculous.
- bmelton 14y ago
  I disagree. The amount of people they'd have to hire to support that 1% of their users could make the service untenable as free to the rest of us. In my opinion, the thing done wrong was offering support through unofficial channels. It sets the wrong expectations and perpetuates the notion that if you know the right people, you'll get the support that others can't, and honestly don't deserve. If I give rakes out to 100 people, should I have to hire staff to fix the ones that break? No. I gave them something for free. If they don't like it, they can go somewhere else. If they buy a rake, then they'll get a warranty, and be entitled to speak to a human about it. To your point directly though, it IS an excuse to provide shitty service, if they did that. As you said, it's beautiful and perfect for more than 99% of their customers.
  - thinkdevcode 14y ago
    Your rake analogy is not sound. Ok so Google gives Gmail for free - as in you don't need to pay for it. But is it really "free"? No. They parse your emails so they know what you are buying/selling, who you are talking to, what sites you have a membership on, etc. They also use Gmail to display ads (based off of the things they learned from your emails) to make money off of you. They probably do other things i'm not even thinking of right now. So is it really free? Not at all. Is it a great source of information about you (to then be used by them to target ads at you)? Absolutely. They should be providing support for it. I don't know what that support should look like (be it a call center, forums, etc), but I definitely think that if I give Google permission to snoop through my personal email so they can build better ads for me (which is how they make the majority of their money) I expect some damn support.
    - bmelton 14y ago
      Since that shoe had to drop, you could also point out that they DO provide support. There are google groups, message boards, support forums, HowTos. There's even Prioritized phone support that you can apparently sign up for.[1] It's not as though they hand you the source code and a note saying "Good luck." [1] - http://support.google.com/accounts/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=1752770 http://support.google.com/accounts/bin/answer.py?hl=en&a...
      - slurgfest 14y ago
        The source code would be more helpful, since a thousand companies would already be competing for the privilege to provide basic support to individual users.
        bmelton 14y ago
        By that same argument, you'd think that companies providing a gmail-like service + support would be making piles and piles of money. Are there any? (Not snark, I genuinely don't know of any.)
  - 14y ago
ramses0 14y ago
Can you even pay for gmail? http://groups.google.com/group/Gmail-Help-Logging-In-en/browse_thread/thread/4e569531093d5e03 http://groups.google.com/group/Gmail-Help-Logging-In-en/brow...
- bmelton 14y ago
  http://www.google.com/enterprise/apps/business/pricing.html http://www.google.com/enterprise/apps/business/pricing.html Also, I don't know anything about this, since I've never used it, but in looking at my account options on the 'Help' page, they have a "Prioritized Phone Support" that it seems you can pay for: http://support.google.com/accounts/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=1752770 http://support.google.com/accounts/bin/answer.py?hl=en&a...
  - blibble 14y ago
    their phone support is excellent, I've filed a ticket twice and both times within 5 minutes I've been called on the phone, and they resolved the issue.
    - bmelton 14y ago
      Did you get to it through that "Prioritized" service? Also, can I ask how much it cost?
j_baker 14y ago
You make it sound like Google prices Gmail for free out of the kindness of their heart. They're a business. I use gmail for free because I feel it's in my best interests to do so, and they provide it to me for free because they feel it's in their best interests to do so. The moment that agreement becomes invalid is the moment a person has the right to become frustrated.
- bmelton 14y ago
  Frustrated, sure. The remedy for frustration is to take your business elsewhere. Frustration doesn't entitle you to get support on a free service.
  - DavidAbrams 14y ago
    As he already pointed out: IT'S NOT FREE. Google (read their terms) reserves the right to mine your communications for information that they then sell to advertisers. You're doing THEM at least as much a service.
  - ucee054 14y ago
    However this frustration does entitle us to accurately describe a 99% working service. There are terms for something that works 99 days but on the 100th day makes you feel like gotterdammerung. They are a crappy service, fails QA 101, never trust google and i'm switching my email to something else
    - bmelton 14y ago
      That is, in my most civil interpretation, knee-jerk hyperbole. You're certainly within your rights to feel that way, and if you do, I certainly encourage you to migrate to something else. If that's really how you feel though, I'm guessing you already would have unless... just maybe, the service is better than you admit.
      - ucee054 14y ago
        You think that it is knee-jerk hyperbole because you do not take account to the user the risk of using the service. The risk means that even if Google provides the service free, it still can have a cost for the user that can be very high depending on the importance of the emails the user is locked out of. It also means that the cost is invisible 99% of the time, which is why people keep using Google services. After all, most companies that offer network services mitigate the risk for the user by allowing the user to contact them for help if things go wrong. For example, Amazon Web Services and Microsoft both allow you to purchase support. However, Google seem to only provide support when they decide to invite you to it. In my personal case, my main email of 16 years is becoming increasingly spammed. I needed to find another email to migrate to, and decided to try out Gmail. Gmail has failed my evaluation.
ubernostrum 14y ago
It's also come up multiple times that this approach is not unique to Google's free services. Quite often their paying customers -- especially for the ad-related services, which are Google's bread and butter -- are also unable to get in touch with anything other than an algorithm. In other words, this is not Google just saying "well, free users don't get support", it's a symptom of a very broad systemic issue. And while it may not be "evil" to provide no support for a free service, it does raise question marks for anyone who looks at a free service to get some idea of who they'd be interacting with on upgrading to paying.
- bmelton 14y ago
  I was specifically referring to gmail, and mostly to make the point that I honestly feel those that respond through unofficial channels (like HN) are doing Goog a disservice by skewing customer expectations. You of course have a very valid point for their paid services, though as they've obviously done very well for themselves despite limited support offerings, it isn't that big a deal. As usual, if you don't like the service, vote with your dollars. If the service is so indispensable that you need them despite their failing you in some way (like not having support) then well, that's the discriminator. You can 'pay' for support by going elsewhere to a service that won't perform as well, which may cost you money. Also, for what it's worth, I agree that they probably could provide support, and that Google in general is bad at it. It is easily their weakest area in my opinion. I only responded as sternly as I did to combat the 'evil' allegation, which seems to be bandied about any time Google does even the slightest of negative things.
slurgfest 14y ago
Gmail is not a used rake. [Dick comes to the door of Tom.] Dick: Hey Tom, I see that you don't have a mailbox. I have a few hundred extras down the street, would you like to use one on the condition that I might analyze who is sending you mail and the like? It's really secure and it's all the rage in the city you can store 2000 pounds of mail forever blah blah blah. You should really use it! Tom: Sure Dick, it's a real help to have an address for bills, personal correspondence, etc. And I can use it to establish residency and so on. [Tom puts the address in his letterhead, tells everyone to use it, makes several job applications with it, etc. He uses it for everything. Every service he uses authenticates him by his access to this box.] [One morning Tom goes out to his box and sees it has been padlocked. After a great deal of searching, Tom finds an unofficial contact for Dick.] Tom: Hey Dick, can you unlock the box for me? I am expecting a check, a letter from my daughter, etc. Dick: Sorry, I can't do that. And I can't tell you why. What did you expect for free? Anyway, how did you get this number?
- bmelton 14y ago
  Well, you have to win points (and got one from me) for coming up with the best analogy. Though as I recently discovered, they do have phone support, and message boards, and google groups, and all that jazz. I understand that I'm perhaps the outlier in thinking this, but Google is acting exactly as they said they would, and exactly as they always have. I don't see malice in that, and I certainly don't see 'evil'.
  - slurgfest 14y ago
    I agree with you that Google is not evil. All I am saying is that Google is a Dick.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - jakobe 14y ago
    Phone support? Where? I have looked for phone support when all the email disappeared from my gmail inbox. There is no phone support for Gmail.

by bmelton 14y ago

Karunamon 14y ago

> if you want support, you pay for it. That's no excuse to provide a shitty service. For 99% of people GMail is not shitty and is infact quite awesome. That doesn't change the fact that with the amount of people Google has, not having even a queue for people to get minor issues fixed (Freaking MICROSOFT can get this right, for crying out loud!!) is ridiculous.

bmelton 14y ago
I disagree. The amount of people they'd have to hire to support that 1% of their users could make the service untenable as free to the rest of us. In my opinion, the thing done wrong was offering support through unofficial channels. It sets the wrong expectations and perpetuates the notion that if you know the right people, you'll get the support that others can't, and honestly don't deserve. If I give rakes out to 100 people, should I have to hire staff to fix the ones that break? No. I gave them something for free. If they don't like it, they can go somewhere else. If they buy a rake, then they'll get a warranty, and be entitled to speak to a human about it. To your point directly though, it IS an excuse to provide shitty service, if they did that. As you said, it's beautiful and perfect for more than 99% of their customers.
- thinkdevcode 14y ago
  Your rake analogy is not sound. Ok so Google gives Gmail for free - as in you don't need to pay for it. But is it really "free"? No. They parse your emails so they know what you are buying/selling, who you are talking to, what sites you have a membership on, etc. They also use Gmail to display ads (based off of the things they learned from your emails) to make money off of you. They probably do other things i'm not even thinking of right now. So is it really free? Not at all. Is it a great source of information about you (to then be used by them to target ads at you)? Absolutely. They should be providing support for it. I don't know what that support should look like (be it a call center, forums, etc), but I definitely think that if I give Google permission to snoop through my personal email so they can build better ads for me (which is how they make the majority of their money) I expect some damn support.
  - bmelton 14y ago
    Since that shoe had to drop, you could also point out that they DO provide support. There are google groups, message boards, support forums, HowTos. There's even Prioritized phone support that you can apparently sign up for.[1] It's not as though they hand you the source code and a note saying "Good luck." [1] - http://support.google.com/accounts/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=1752770 http://support.google.com/accounts/bin/answer.py?hl=en&a...
    - slurgfest 14y ago
      The source code would be more helpful, since a thousand companies would already be competing for the privilege to provide basic support to individual users.
      - bmelton 14y ago
        By that same argument, you'd think that companies providing a gmail-like service + support would be making piles and piles of money. Are there any? (Not snark, I genuinely don't know of any.)
- 14y ago

ramses0 14y ago

Can you even pay for gmail? http://groups.google.com/group/Gmail-Help-Logging-In-en/browse_thread/thread/4e569531093d5e03 http://groups.google.com/group/Gmail-Help-Logging-In-en/brow...

bmelton 14y ago
http://www.google.com/enterprise/apps/business/pricing.html http://www.google.com/enterprise/apps/business/pricing.html Also, I don't know anything about this, since I've never used it, but in looking at my account options on the 'Help' page, they have a "Prioritized Phone Support" that it seems you can pay for: http://support.google.com/accounts/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=1752770 http://support.google.com/accounts/bin/answer.py?hl=en&a...
- blibble 14y ago
  their phone support is excellent, I've filed a ticket twice and both times within 5 minutes I've been called on the phone, and they resolved the issue.
  - bmelton 14y ago
    Did you get to it through that "Prioritized" service? Also, can I ask how much it cost?

j_baker 14y ago

You make it sound like Google prices Gmail for free out of the kindness of their heart. They're a business. I use gmail for free because I feel it's in my best interests to do so, and they provide it to me for free because they feel it's in their best interests to do so. The moment that agreement becomes invalid is the moment a person has the right to become frustrated.

bmelton 14y ago
Frustrated, sure. The remedy for frustration is to take your business elsewhere. Frustration doesn't entitle you to get support on a free service.
- DavidAbrams 14y ago
  As he already pointed out: IT'S NOT FREE. Google (read their terms) reserves the right to mine your communications for information that they then sell to advertisers. You're doing THEM at least as much a service.
- ucee054 14y ago
  However this frustration does entitle us to accurately describe a 99% working service. There are terms for something that works 99 days but on the 100th day makes you feel like gotterdammerung. They are a crappy service, fails QA 101, never trust google and i'm switching my email to something else
  - bmelton 14y ago
    That is, in my most civil interpretation, knee-jerk hyperbole. You're certainly within your rights to feel that way, and if you do, I certainly encourage you to migrate to something else. If that's really how you feel though, I'm guessing you already would have unless... just maybe, the service is better than you admit.
    - ucee054 14y ago
      You think that it is knee-jerk hyperbole because you do not take account to the user the risk of using the service. The risk means that even if Google provides the service free, it still can have a cost for the user that can be very high depending on the importance of the emails the user is locked out of. It also means that the cost is invisible 99% of the time, which is why people keep using Google services. After all, most companies that offer network services mitigate the risk for the user by allowing the user to contact them for help if things go wrong. For example, Amazon Web Services and Microsoft both allow you to purchase support. However, Google seem to only provide support when they decide to invite you to it. In my personal case, my main email of 16 years is becoming increasingly spammed. I needed to find another email to migrate to, and decided to try out Gmail. Gmail has failed my evaluation.

ubernostrum 14y ago

It's also come up multiple times that this approach is not unique to Google's free services. Quite often their paying customers -- especially for the ad-related services, which are Google's bread and butter -- are also unable to get in touch with anything other than an algorithm. In other words, this is not Google just saying "well, free users don't get support", it's a symptom of a very broad systemic issue. And while it may not be "evil" to provide no support for a free service, it does raise question marks for anyone who looks at a free service to get some idea of who they'd be interacting with on upgrading to paying.

bmelton 14y ago
I was specifically referring to gmail, and mostly to make the point that I honestly feel those that respond through unofficial channels (like HN) are doing Goog a disservice by skewing customer expectations. You of course have a very valid point for their paid services, though as they've obviously done very well for themselves despite limited support offerings, it isn't that big a deal. As usual, if you don't like the service, vote with your dollars. If the service is so indispensable that you need them despite their failing you in some way (like not having support) then well, that's the discriminator. You can 'pay' for support by going elsewhere to a service that won't perform as well, which may cost you money. Also, for what it's worth, I agree that they probably could provide support, and that Google in general is bad at it. It is easily their weakest area in my opinion. I only responded as sternly as I did to combat the 'evil' allegation, which seems to be bandied about any time Google does even the slightest of negative things.

slurgfest 14y ago

Gmail is not a used rake. [Dick comes to the door of Tom.] Dick: Hey Tom, I see that you don't have a mailbox. I have a few hundred extras down the street, would you like to use one on the condition that I might analyze who is sending you mail and the like? It's really secure and it's all the rage in the city you can store 2000 pounds of mail forever blah blah blah. You should really use it! Tom: Sure Dick, it's a real help to have an address for bills, personal correspondence, etc. And I can use it to establish residency and so on. [Tom puts the address in his letterhead, tells everyone to use it, makes several job applications with it, etc. He uses it for everything. Every service he uses authenticates him by his access to this box.] [One morning Tom goes out to his box and sees it has been padlocked. After a great deal of searching, Tom finds an unofficial contact for Dick.] Tom: Hey Dick, can you unlock the box for me? I am expecting a check, a letter from my daughter, etc. Dick: Sorry, I can't do that. And I can't tell you why. What did you expect for free? Anyway, how did you get this number?

bmelton 14y ago
Well, you have to win points (and got one from me) for coming up with the best analogy. Though as I recently discovered, they do have phone support, and message boards, and google groups, and all that jazz. I understand that I'm perhaps the outlier in thinking this, but Google is acting exactly as they said they would, and exactly as they always have. I don't see malice in that, and I certainly don't see 'evil'.
- slurgfest 14y ago
  I agree with you that Google is not evil. All I am saying is that Google is a Dick.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- jakobe 14y ago
  Phone support? Where? I have looked for phone support when all the email disappeared from my gmail inbox. There is no phone support for Gmail.