11 ms·

I don't like tiktok but the hypocrisy is insane

by poulpy123 3y ago

arsenico 3y ago
What's the hypocrisy here?
- schoen 3y ago
  People and companies in the U.S. (and parts of the U.S. government) have frequently said that it's bad of the Chinese government to prevent U.S. companies from having Chinese users, and to prevent people in Chinese from choosing to see material from U.S. companies and users. We've said that this wasn't a legitimate thing for Chinese law to do, on account of human rights law, free speech principles, and also trade treaties. We've tried hard to help people in China circumvent technical restrictions on accessing foreign content and services, and often claimed that was appropriate as a matter of upholding Chinese people's autonomy. (I say "we" here because I've personally done those things.)
  - Reason077 3y ago
    Principle of reciprocity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocity_(international_relations) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocity_(international_rel...
- berdario 3y ago
  Not the parent, but I think the main hypocrisy is to claim that freedom of enterprise and that freedom or speech are paramount, and then cracking down on Tiktok. The fact that Tiktok has 60% ownership by investment funds (most of which are US based), is just the cherry on top. Personally, I think that some amount of censorship is warranted (see the "paradox of intolerance"), but I think that then the US should dial back all of that "land of the free" rethoric
fernandotakai 3y ago
you realize this has happened before right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grindr#Divesture_and_public_listing_(2020%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grindr#Divesture_and_public_li...
bloggie 3y ago
Can you explain? TikTok is banned in China too.
- schoen 3y ago
  And the U.S. (people, companies, government, and NGOs) say that Chinese Internet censorship is bad for Chinese people, not just for American companies whose services are blocked.
valleyjo 3y ago
What do you mean? China has banned all US social media. On the simple grounds of reciprocity (which afaik is a generally accepted foreign policy strategy) this ban seems justified.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Akronymus 3y ago
  it seems rather mild, even. A lot of companies wanting to operate in china must have a pretty large ownership by chinese parties. While chinese owned companies have no such obligations in the US.
- throwaway4good 3y ago
  Microsoft runs outlook, bing, and until recently LinkedIn in China.
- pjc50 3y ago
  The argument is basically that for the average US national, mass surveillance and propaganda by US tech is more of an issue. The argument against TikTok boils down to "it's Chinese", without any kind of detail or thought on how this badness actually works. What, specifically, is bad about TikTok that doesn't apply to any other influence buying or advertising operation within the US? HN often argues that free speech is such an unalloyed important political good that all sorts of racism and incitement to violence must be allowed. The widespread defence of Kiwifarms, for example. But as soon as someone mentions the magic word "China" all that goes out of the window? (I should note that if you're a US national or resident with Chinese family or of Chinese origin, the long arm of oppression can be much more of a problem!)
  - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
    You’re not wrong, but they aren’t doing it for you. They view tiktok as a national security issue.
    - 3y ago
screenothethird 3y ago
[dead]

I don't like tiktok but the hypocrisy is insane

arsenico 3y ago

What's the hypocrisy here?

schoen 3y ago
People and companies in the U.S. (and parts of the U.S. government) have frequently said that it's bad of the Chinese government to prevent U.S. companies from having Chinese users, and to prevent people in Chinese from choosing to see material from U.S. companies and users. We've said that this wasn't a legitimate thing for Chinese law to do, on account of human rights law, free speech principles, and also trade treaties. We've tried hard to help people in China circumvent technical restrictions on accessing foreign content and services, and often claimed that was appropriate as a matter of upholding Chinese people's autonomy. (I say "we" here because I've personally done those things.)
- Reason077 3y ago
  Principle of reciprocity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocity_(international_relations) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocity_(international_rel...
berdario 3y ago
Not the parent, but I think the main hypocrisy is to claim that freedom of enterprise and that freedom or speech are paramount, and then cracking down on Tiktok. The fact that Tiktok has 60% ownership by investment funds (most of which are US based), is just the cherry on top. Personally, I think that some amount of censorship is warranted (see the "paradox of intolerance"), but I think that then the US should dial back all of that "land of the free" rethoric

fernandotakai 3y ago

you realize this has happened before right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grindr#Divesture_and_public_listing_(2020%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grindr#Divesture_and_public_li...

bloggie 3y ago

Can you explain? TikTok is banned in China too.

schoen 3y ago
And the U.S. (people, companies, government, and NGOs) say that Chinese Internet censorship is bad for Chinese people, not just for American companies whose services are blocked.

valleyjo 3y ago

What do you mean? China has banned all US social media. On the simple grounds of reciprocity (which afaik is a generally accepted foreign policy strategy) this ban seems justified.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Akronymus 3y ago
it seems rather mild, even. A lot of companies wanting to operate in china must have a pretty large ownership by chinese parties. While chinese owned companies have no such obligations in the US.
throwaway4good 3y ago
Microsoft runs outlook, bing, and until recently LinkedIn in China.
pjc50 3y ago
The argument is basically that for the average US national, mass surveillance and propaganda by US tech is more of an issue. The argument against TikTok boils down to "it's Chinese", without any kind of detail or thought on how this badness actually works. What, specifically, is bad about TikTok that doesn't apply to any other influence buying or advertising operation within the US? HN often argues that free speech is such an unalloyed important political good that all sorts of racism and incitement to violence must be allowed. The widespread defence of Kiwifarms, for example. But as soon as someone mentions the magic word "China" all that goes out of the window? (I should note that if you're a US national or resident with Chinese family or of Chinese origin, the long arm of oppression can be much more of a problem!)
- amanaplanacanal 3y ago
  You’re not wrong, but they aren’t doing it for you. They view tiktok as a national security issue.
  - 3y ago

screenothethird 3y ago

[dead]