4 ms·

I thought America believed in capitalism and the free market? This seems to be the opposite of that philosophy.

by archerx 3y ago

Valodim 3y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
r0ckarong 3y ago
Americans also constantly talk about freedom and then you look at their history ...
- nozzlegear 3y ago
  Can you explain?
  - flandish 3y ago
    Americans are not really free. Some have only been “free” less than 100 years.
    - nozzlegear 3y ago
      Can you define "free" as you see it today, without giving me some kind of anti-capitalist rant? > Some have only been “free” less than 100 years. And what about now? Yes, they should've been free from the start. We fought a civil war over this. If you want to hold countries to the standard of the things they've done in the past, then you're ignoring some very big gorillas in the room by pointing your finger at the USA.
      - flandish 3y ago
        Your requirement of my definition not being anti-capitalist is tough because it is capitalist to endure some people are not free. Work conditions to for-profit prisons with a “war on drugs” building the prison pop are examples. It is very telling that concern over freedom shows first in your reply as “yeah but capitalism.”
        nozzlegear 3y ago
        For what it's worth, I agree about for-profit prisons. Working against them is a personal pet project of mine, so I was happy to see Biden terminate federal contracts with for-profit prisons in his first month as President [1]. There's still plenty of them out there, but progress is progress. > It is very telling that concern over freedom shows first in your reply as “yeah but capitalism.” No, I just had a look at your previous comments and recognized a tired pattern one finds repeated ad nauseam by wannabe communists on Reddit. I didn't feel like making a comment that would just get a reply along the lines of "you've activated my anti-capitalism trap card". [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/biden-s-order-terminates-federal-private-prison-contracts-here-s-n1255776 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/biden-s-order-terminates...
        flandish 3y ago
        Fair points. I’m not on reddit but understand your reticence. I’m an actual community helping (fire/first responding mostly) leftist trying my best. But yeah - I do tend to blame capital on herec(hn) lots because, I’ll be honest, hn is a capitalist mob spawner of sorts. :)
  - r0ckarong 2y ago
    The history of the United States is not only steeped in oppression on home soil but also consists of a staggering amount of meddling in the sovereignty of other countries. For a nation that goes on and on about freedom, they sure know very little about leaving people to their own devices.
    - nozzlegear 2y ago
      When Americans talk about freedom, they are almost exclusively talking about the freedoms granted to American citizens by the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. They are not talking about the sovereignty of other nations, that doesn't factor in at all. Frankly, I think you're doing some robust mental gymnastics by equating those freedoms with a freedom from the long arm of Pax Americana. > The history of the United States is not only steeped in oppression The history of the entire world is steeped in oppression.
RamblingCTO 3y ago
I think it's pretty agreed upon that for capitalism to work you need some limitations. This argument is just snarky tbh. We all know that the US has agencies checking monopolies.
- datadeft 3y ago
  Like enforcing safety standards? These are the “limitations” that the US erodes right now in favour of profits.
  - RamblingCTO 3y ago
    Even better point than anti-trust!
- defrost 3y ago
  How effective are those agencies? In the tech sector, for example, what came after the 20+ year old United States v. Microsoft Corp. anti trust case that concluded w/out breaking up Microsoft and soft balled the penalty? Has that acted as a real deterrent in the tech sector, or is it just a footnote about how hard anti monopoly cases can be in practice?
  - RamblingCTO 3y ago
    I think the us can do even more in that regard! I remember recent acquisitions being blocked, so they are doing something.
AlchemistCamp 3y ago
Assuming that this honest confusion rather than a trolling talking point, no, it’s never been a purely free market. There are considerable restrictions in finance, health care and a number of other industries. Relevant to this case, there have been restrictions on foreign ownership of radio and TV stations for a very long time. It’s why Murdoch became a US citizen.
henry2023 3y ago
Competition and free markets are only for the countries that can’t really compete with us. We like protectionism and customs duties. If that is not enough then there’s always the “national security” argument.
- henry2023 3y ago
  Sorry if this comes across like cynicism. Although I don’t like this system I truly believe this is what it is. Take for example Chinese EVs, if everything stays the same they will outcompete us and instead of approaching this with better engineering and innovation we’re starting to hear about how those cars may be spying on us. Soon to be banned for our own “safety”.
  - AlchemistCamp 3y ago
    It's not so much that it's cynical, it's also that it steers the thread towards an unpleasant and already well-tread line of political bickering where both sides are talking past each other.
tivert 3y ago
> I thought America believed in capitalism and the free market? This seems to be the opposite of that philosophy. Yeah, and as an American, I'm so sick of hearing about "capitalism and the free market" that my first impulse is to support anything that irks the monomaniacal believers in those things. They're broken records and it's tiresome.
datadeft 3y ago
Like how Boeing is strong arming the FAA to allow them to fly? Or pushing Airbus out? Democracy and capitalism both dies when corporations take over.
RandomLensman 3y ago
No, not really - why would it be?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
darkhorn 3y ago
Does China allow Facebook to work in China?
- henry2023 3y ago
  If you’re going to base the actions of the US on grounds of what a country run by the communist party does. Then, are we really capitalists?
  - hoseja 3y ago
    Then clearly just banning a propaganda outlet is the smallest bit of warfare that should be waged against the communist country. If China is communist, TikTok is an arm of the CCP. If China is capitalist, it's perfectly fine to retaliate against them blocking western companies from operating within their borders.
- jpgvm 3y ago
  Technically yes. Google also. The caveat being they expect data and servers etc to be present within China and unlike the EU don't allow data to leave China. The penalties are also much much higher. There are also rules around applying censorship and other requirements, not dissimilar from operating in Thailand, Vietnam, India and probably other markets but those are the 3 I'm very familiar with. Google previously was happy enough with this arrangement but eventually pulled out. They had very poor market penetration, Baidu then (and now) enjoys a near monopoly on search similar to Google in the US. I imagine that was the key reason rather than the rules themselves as they operate in other very restrictive markets without complaint. Facebook would have an awful time trying to compete in China tbh. The market is just way too competitive with way too many absolutely cutthroat market participants, completely unlike the US market which was pretty much stagnant before TikTok showed up. These companies don't enter China for the same reason why many companies don't. Domestic competition there is just too damn tough. If your market isn't already in race to the bottom stage in China it always descends into it pretty quickly because of the rate people clone and adopt similar ideas. If you don't have an unfair advantage you need to be very innovative to stay ahead.
matrix87 3y ago
If it's a change, it's a welcome one
quonn 3y ago
Free trade != free domestic market and capitalism. Furthermore even free trade (which the US doesn‘t exactly practice) does not mean allowing foreign adversaries (which China arguably is) to undermine the political system which is democratic (which they may not do yet but there is no need to enable them to being able to choose to do it later).
VelesDude 3y ago
Embrace, extend, extinguish. Companies love open standards, at first. They love them to get traction but once they have the majority locked down, use it to force others out. Same with "free" markets.
nozzlegear 3y ago
Letting yourself be taken advantage of is a fool’s game, no matter what you believe in.
flandish 3y ago
This is actually standard late stage capitalism. Can’t compete? Lobby your gov to ban/break the competition.
TMWNN 3y ago
If TikTok were a Canadian, British, French, German, Korean, Japanese, or Taiwanese company, the US government wouldn't have intervened in the first place. Conversely, if TikTok were a Canadian, British, French, German, Korean, Japanese, or Taiwanese company, American would not have to fear a hostile government silently gathering data on American users, or a company repeatedly shown to be lying about using its app to do so.

I thought America believed in capitalism and the free market? This seems to be the opposite of that philosophy.

Valodim 3y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

r0ckarong 3y ago

Americans also constantly talk about freedom and then you look at their history ...

nozzlegear 3y ago
Can you explain?
- flandish 3y ago
  Americans are not really free. Some have only been “free” less than 100 years.
  - nozzlegear 3y ago
    Can you define "free" as you see it today, without giving me some kind of anti-capitalist rant? > Some have only been “free” less than 100 years. And what about now? Yes, they should've been free from the start. We fought a civil war over this. If you want to hold countries to the standard of the things they've done in the past, then you're ignoring some very big gorillas in the room by pointing your finger at the USA.
    - flandish 3y ago
      Your requirement of my definition not being anti-capitalist is tough because it is capitalist to endure some people are not free. Work conditions to for-profit prisons with a “war on drugs” building the prison pop are examples. It is very telling that concern over freedom shows first in your reply as “yeah but capitalism.”
      - nozzlegear 3y ago
        For what it's worth, I agree about for-profit prisons. Working against them is a personal pet project of mine, so I was happy to see Biden terminate federal contracts with for-profit prisons in his first month as President [1]. There's still plenty of them out there, but progress is progress. > It is very telling that concern over freedom shows first in your reply as “yeah but capitalism.” No, I just had a look at your previous comments and recognized a tired pattern one finds repeated ad nauseam by wannabe communists on Reddit. I didn't feel like making a comment that would just get a reply along the lines of "you've activated my anti-capitalism trap card". [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/biden-s-order-terminates-federal-private-prison-contracts-here-s-n1255776 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/biden-s-order-terminates...
        flandish 3y ago
        Fair points. I’m not on reddit but understand your reticence. I’m an actual community helping (fire/first responding mostly) leftist trying my best. But yeah - I do tend to blame capital on herec(hn) lots because, I’ll be honest, hn is a capitalist mob spawner of sorts. :)
- r0ckarong 2y ago
  The history of the United States is not only steeped in oppression on home soil but also consists of a staggering amount of meddling in the sovereignty of other countries. For a nation that goes on and on about freedom, they sure know very little about leaving people to their own devices.
  - nozzlegear 2y ago
    When Americans talk about freedom, they are almost exclusively talking about the freedoms granted to American citizens by the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. They are not talking about the sovereignty of other nations, that doesn't factor in at all. Frankly, I think you're doing some robust mental gymnastics by equating those freedoms with a freedom from the long arm of Pax Americana. > The history of the United States is not only steeped in oppression The history of the entire world is steeped in oppression.

RamblingCTO 3y ago

I think it's pretty agreed upon that for capitalism to work you need some limitations. This argument is just snarky tbh. We all know that the US has agencies checking monopolies.

datadeft 3y ago
Like enforcing safety standards? These are the “limitations” that the US erodes right now in favour of profits.
- RamblingCTO 3y ago
  Even better point than anti-trust!
defrost 3y ago
How effective are those agencies? In the tech sector, for example, what came after the 20+ year old United States v. Microsoft Corp. anti trust case that concluded w/out breaking up Microsoft and soft balled the penalty? Has that acted as a real deterrent in the tech sector, or is it just a footnote about how hard anti monopoly cases can be in practice?
- RamblingCTO 3y ago
  I think the us can do even more in that regard! I remember recent acquisitions being blocked, so they are doing something.

AlchemistCamp 3y ago

Assuming that this honest confusion rather than a trolling talking point, no, it’s never been a purely free market. There are considerable restrictions in finance, health care and a number of other industries. Relevant to this case, there have been restrictions on foreign ownership of radio and TV stations for a very long time. It’s why Murdoch became a US citizen.

henry2023 3y ago

Competition and free markets are only for the countries that can’t really compete with us. We like protectionism and customs duties. If that is not enough then there’s always the “national security” argument.

henry2023 3y ago
Sorry if this comes across like cynicism. Although I don’t like this system I truly believe this is what it is. Take for example Chinese EVs, if everything stays the same they will outcompete us and instead of approaching this with better engineering and innovation we’re starting to hear about how those cars may be spying on us. Soon to be banned for our own “safety”.
- AlchemistCamp 3y ago
  It's not so much that it's cynical, it's also that it steers the thread towards an unpleasant and already well-tread line of political bickering where both sides are talking past each other.

tivert 3y ago

> I thought America believed in capitalism and the free market? This seems to be the opposite of that philosophy. Yeah, and as an American, I'm so sick of hearing about "capitalism and the free market" that my first impulse is to support anything that irks the monomaniacal believers in those things. They're broken records and it's tiresome.

datadeft 3y ago

Like how Boeing is strong arming the FAA to allow them to fly? Or pushing Airbus out? Democracy and capitalism both dies when corporations take over.

RandomLensman 3y ago

No, not really - why would it be?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

darkhorn 3y ago

Does China allow Facebook to work in China?

henry2023 3y ago
If you’re going to base the actions of the US on grounds of what a country run by the communist party does. Then, are we really capitalists?
- hoseja 3y ago
  Then clearly just banning a propaganda outlet is the smallest bit of warfare that should be waged against the communist country. If China is communist, TikTok is an arm of the CCP. If China is capitalist, it's perfectly fine to retaliate against them blocking western companies from operating within their borders.
jpgvm 3y ago
Technically yes. Google also. The caveat being they expect data and servers etc to be present within China and unlike the EU don't allow data to leave China. The penalties are also much much higher. There are also rules around applying censorship and other requirements, not dissimilar from operating in Thailand, Vietnam, India and probably other markets but those are the 3 I'm very familiar with. Google previously was happy enough with this arrangement but eventually pulled out. They had very poor market penetration, Baidu then (and now) enjoys a near monopoly on search similar to Google in the US. I imagine that was the key reason rather than the rules themselves as they operate in other very restrictive markets without complaint. Facebook would have an awful time trying to compete in China tbh. The market is just way too competitive with way too many absolutely cutthroat market participants, completely unlike the US market which was pretty much stagnant before TikTok showed up. These companies don't enter China for the same reason why many companies don't. Domestic competition there is just too damn tough. If your market isn't already in race to the bottom stage in China it always descends into it pretty quickly because of the rate people clone and adopt similar ideas. If you don't have an unfair advantage you need to be very innovative to stay ahead.

matrix87 3y ago

If it's a change, it's a welcome one

quonn 3y ago

Free trade != free domestic market and capitalism. Furthermore even free trade (which the US doesn‘t exactly practice) does not mean allowing foreign adversaries (which China arguably is) to undermine the political system which is democratic (which they may not do yet but there is no need to enable them to being able to choose to do it later).

VelesDude 3y ago

Embrace, extend, extinguish. Companies love open standards, at first. They love them to get traction but once they have the majority locked down, use it to force others out. Same with "free" markets.

nozzlegear 3y ago

Letting yourself be taken advantage of is a fool’s game, no matter what you believe in.

flandish 3y ago

This is actually standard late stage capitalism. Can’t compete? Lobby your gov to ban/break the competition.

TMWNN 3y ago

If TikTok were a Canadian, British, French, German, Korean, Japanese, or Taiwanese company, the US government wouldn't have intervened in the first place. Conversely, if TikTok were a Canadian, British, French, German, Korean, Japanese, or Taiwanese company, American would not have to fear a hostile government silently gathering data on American users, or a company repeatedly shown to be lying about using its app to do so.