3 ms·

>Without constant updates, software that is part a a larger ecosystem will eventually breakdown. This is why we should be so skeptical of tight software integr

>Without constant updates, software that is part a a larger ecosystem will eventually breakdown. This is why we should be so skeptical of tight software integration with durable hardware (e.g., cars and appliances with operational lifespans 10+ years easily). Software has a pretty short half-life, especially software that integrates with internet services; vulnerabilities get discovered in third-party components and remote APIs shift out from under you. Durable goods manufacturers have little skill or interest in long-term software upkeep (maybe they like the profits and the rent-seeking, but not the actual maintenance), so the most sustainable design is one where the software is easily seperable and replaceable from the core durable item. Manufacturer-specific internet-connected infotainment in cars ain't it.

shiroiushi 3y ago
>so the most sustainable design is one where the software is easily seperable and replaceable from the core durable item. No, the most realistically sustainable design is one where the software is built into the durable item and not connected to the internet, so it never changes and doesn't need to worry about security issues. You can keep using the thing until it fails from mechanical issues and can't be easily repaired. If it's internet-connected for some reason, then the software should be open-source so interested parties can take over maintenance after the OEM decides they don't want to bother any more. However, I don't consider this "realistic": how many manufacturers are going to do this in reality? Almost none: they want you to buy a replacement device.
- kergonath 3y ago
  > No, the most realistically sustainable design is one where the software is built into the durable item and not connected to the internet, so it never changes and doesn't need to worry about security issues. How would that work in a car, where people expect map updates and streaming music or radio over the internet?
  - diffeomorphism 3y ago
    Just like that. Robust, simple software, open standards a r/w partition for map data. Having well-defined, narrow access to the outside world is much easier to secure and keep working.
  - shiroiushi 3y ago
    I don't think it would. I was really thinking more about things like home appliances. An embedded computer is handy for a washing machine, for instance, but it doesn't need to be connected to the internet (no, notifying you it's finished isn't necessary: the machine should tell you when you press "start" approximately how long it will take). For a car, I really don't know. I don't see any way of putting up-to-date navigation software into a dashboard without a significant security risk, which means needing the ability to keep software updated. Even CarPlay/AA are non-trivial and would need security updates.
- com2kid 3y ago
  > No, the most realistically sustainable design is one where the software is built into the durable item and not connected to the internet, so it never changes and doesn't need to worry about security issues. You can keep using the thing until it fails from mechanical issues and can't be easily repaired. My car isn't connected to the internet, it has not received any updates. However Google enjoys messing with the Android BT stack for whatever reason (there was a period in the mid 2010s where BT on Android was dramatically ~broken~ rewritten every couple of years), so accordingly my car has lost functionality.

shiroiushi 3y ago

>so the most sustainable design is one where the software is easily seperable and replaceable from the core durable item. No, the most realistically sustainable design is one where the software is built into the durable item and not connected to the internet, so it never changes and doesn't need to worry about security issues. You can keep using the thing until it fails from mechanical issues and can't be easily repaired. If it's internet-connected for some reason, then the software should be open-source so interested parties can take over maintenance after the OEM decides they don't want to bother any more. However, I don't consider this "realistic": how many manufacturers are going to do this in reality? Almost none: they want you to buy a replacement device.

kergonath 3y ago
> No, the most realistically sustainable design is one where the software is built into the durable item and not connected to the internet, so it never changes and doesn't need to worry about security issues. How would that work in a car, where people expect map updates and streaming music or radio over the internet?
- diffeomorphism 3y ago
  Just like that. Robust, simple software, open standards a r/w partition for map data. Having well-defined, narrow access to the outside world is much easier to secure and keep working.
- shiroiushi 3y ago
  I don't think it would. I was really thinking more about things like home appliances. An embedded computer is handy for a washing machine, for instance, but it doesn't need to be connected to the internet (no, notifying you it's finished isn't necessary: the machine should tell you when you press "start" approximately how long it will take). For a car, I really don't know. I don't see any way of putting up-to-date navigation software into a dashboard without a significant security risk, which means needing the ability to keep software updated. Even CarPlay/AA are non-trivial and would need security updates.
com2kid 3y ago
> No, the most realistically sustainable design is one where the software is built into the durable item and not connected to the internet, so it never changes and doesn't need to worry about security issues. You can keep using the thing until it fails from mechanical issues and can't be easily repaired. My car isn't connected to the internet, it has not received any updates. However Google enjoys messing with the Android BT stack for whatever reason (there was a period in the mid 2010s where BT on Android was dramatically ~broken~ rewritten every couple of years), so accordingly my car has lost functionality.