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Just to be clear... In your worldview selling AI to a mass murdering apartheid state is not political, but talking about it is?

edanm 3y ago
Calling Israel a mass murdering apartheid state is political. Not everyone agrees with that statement, in fact many strongly disagree. So you can't just assume your conclusion and be aghast that other people don't immediately agree with you.
- jakderrida 3y ago
  Not that I'm advocating for either side, but how do you know they were referring to Israel unless you agree?
  - edanm 3y ago
    Because the topic under discussion is about Google firing workers for protesting Google doing business with Israel. The subtitle is: "Some employees protested the tech giant’s contract with the Israeli government. They’ve been let go."
  - spacechild1 3y ago
    Because of the context?
- bitcharmer 3y ago
  There are literally hundreds of videos and witness testimony evidencing war crimes perpetrated by Israel. There are even mass graves being uncovered which is reported by mainstream media. Humanitarianaid is being held back or bombed by IDF. What on Earth are you talking about? How can one dispute that Israel is a genocidal apartheid?
  - skissane 3y ago
    > There are literally hundreds of videos and witness testimony evidencing war crimes perpetrated by Israel What counts as a war crime depends (among other factors) on the knowledge and intentions of the military commanders ordering the attack, and I don’t see how any of these videos or testimony can answer that.
  - lazide 3y ago
    All the same and more also re: Hamas. Who are the elected representatives of the Palestinian people. This fight is the same as trying to intervene in the drunk, abusive couple down the street’s fight of the day. As is 90% of anything in the Middle East. No one is ‘clean’, but some are more palatable than others in some contexts. And if G or others won’t do business with the ‘officially more palatable’ option (in this case Israel, per the US gov’t), then it hurts their bottom line - which is also Google Employees bottom line. And Google can’t ignore the US gov’t, due to both revenue and regulatory involvement, especially now. If you’re looking for sainthood, non-profits are an option.
    - bitcharmer 3y ago
      Are we really going to pretend there's symmetry in this conflict? Really?
      - lazide 3y ago
        Who says there is a symmetry in the abusive couple neighbors? If you try to get involved, I guarantee you'll regret it either way. Ask any cop that's had to respond to a bunch of domestics.
  - edanm 3y ago
    > How can one dispute that Israel is a genocidal apartheid? Let me talk specifically about the "genocidal" aspect, because Apartheid is a separate topic. If you're coming from a place of "of course Israel is committing genocide", I don't think it very likely that I'm going to convince you otherwise. That is the "default" narrative in many circles (just like the opposite narrative also exists in many circles). That said, I'll do my best to explain why I think that claims of genocide are very wrong. > There are literally hundreds of videos and witness testimony evidencing war crimes perpetrated by Israel. First, there are for sure war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers. Every war crime should be condemned, investigated and prosecuted. Though I don't think there are hundreds of war crimes documented, at least not serious war crimes (serious as in causing bodily harm or death to someone). That said, war crimes, while horrible, are an unfortunate reality that happens in almost every war. War crimes and genocide are separate things. Genocide requires Israel intentionally trying to kill Gazans, or at least part of Gaza. That's a big accusation, and it isn't backed up, at all, by the actual actions of Israel. Israel maybe kills "too many" civilians for the amount of militants it kills (though even that is debateable), but it is targeting militants. It isn't going in there and purposefully killing civilians, for the most part, though horrible mistakes do happen all the time. If you compare the amount of dead in Gaza to almost any modern war, there are far less dead in Gaza. And considering that Israel could do what other countries have done, which is intentionally kill civilians - the fact that there aren't more dead isn't a question of ability, but of will. Israel doesn't want to kill innocent civilians. Most of the videos you cite are either the kinds of terrible things that happen in every war, or genuine war crimes (which do happen), or, as is often the case, an incident which looks different without having context. This is a war in an urban environment, in which Hamas is doing everything in its power to cause more Palestinian casualties, not less. > Humanitarianaid is being held back or bombed by IDF. This is partially true, and I'm very angry at Israel for not allowing even more aid in. But aid isn't being bombed (except for mistakes, which do unfortunately happen). And it's not accurate to blanket say "aid is being held back" - Israel lets in hundreds of aid trucks every day. I think Israel should do a lot more, don't get me wrong, but if your impression is that literally no aid is getting in, that's very very far from reality. > There are even mass graves being uncovered which is reported by mainstream media. This is a story that's only a few days old. I don't think it's fair to draw conclusions on it just yet. The media has a terrible track record of taking claims against Israel at face value, only a few days later backing up the Israeli version, which often vindicates Israel. E.g. the infamous "hospital bombing" in which Israel killed 500 people, which after the fact turned out to be not even an Israel bomb, and only a few dozen died there anyway.
waihtis 3y ago
Nah I am just totally apathetic to the whole thing. I don't live there, it's not my war, it doesn't belong to me in any kind of context. Same is true for 99% of the corps out there. They should focus on giving their employees a better living instead of political circus.
worried4future 3y ago
[flagged]
- zrn900 3y ago
  > Correct. AI (or other technology) are tools. They can be used for good, they can be used for evil, it is should not be within the purview of a company to make such moral judgements. So basically when IBM was selling business machines that were being used in the concentration camps to the Nazi government it was ok. And when other US companies were selling all kinds of things including technology to the Nazis, which were used in the war, including for killing actual American soldiers. And if the Nazis won and were able to implement all they wanted at a global scale, these companies wouldn't be responsible for aiding the Nazi war effort and its eventual triumph. > people to mask-off with antisemitism trying Children are being murdered on live video. That's crazy talk at this point. If murdering children is semitism, then you are on the wrong side. If it isn't, then you are just talking nonsense because what they are doing is unjustifiable. The murder wont go away and the discussion wont stop if you scream 'anti-semitism'. Stop murdering children first.
  - sixstringtheory 3y ago
    > Stop murdering children first. Of course, Israelis and their supporters will say the same thing. There is no one party to this state of affairs still alive that threw the first stone. There was October 7, before that there were settlements and annexations, before that there were intifadas, before that there were mandates, civil wars etc, all the while punctuated by stray killings, bombings and rocket attacks, on and on reaching back millennia. I think plenty of people are tired of the simplistic, reductive, one-side treatment protesters give the issue, as you’re showing here. They think they can dictate to everyone how it should be solved. Condescension like that just never plays well. Comparing the Israel-Palestine conflict to Nazi Germany is both a qualitative and quantitative error. The degree to which Israel has killed Palestinians is dwarfed by the numbers the Nazis put up. The Nazis invaded many countries, occupying a total area over ten times the size of modern Germany. All that in the span of a decade or two, depending on when you count the start; compared to a conflict that in modern times alone is measured in a hundred years, with a small fraction of the impact. With multiple countries committed to their destruction. It’s a disappointing comparison and I can’t help but think it’s made deliberately to provoke an emotional reaction.
rightbyte 3y ago
Hey silly you are supposed to not think it is a big deal.

edanm 3y ago

Calling Israel a mass murdering apartheid state is political. Not everyone agrees with that statement, in fact many strongly disagree. So you can't just assume your conclusion and be aghast that other people don't immediately agree with you.

jakderrida 3y ago
Not that I'm advocating for either side, but how do you know they were referring to Israel unless you agree?
- edanm 3y ago
  Because the topic under discussion is about Google firing workers for protesting Google doing business with Israel. The subtitle is: "Some employees protested the tech giant’s contract with the Israeli government. They’ve been let go."
- spacechild1 3y ago
  Because of the context?
bitcharmer 3y ago
There are literally hundreds of videos and witness testimony evidencing war crimes perpetrated by Israel. There are even mass graves being uncovered which is reported by mainstream media. Humanitarianaid is being held back or bombed by IDF. What on Earth are you talking about? How can one dispute that Israel is a genocidal apartheid?
- skissane 3y ago
  > There are literally hundreds of videos and witness testimony evidencing war crimes perpetrated by Israel What counts as a war crime depends (among other factors) on the knowledge and intentions of the military commanders ordering the attack, and I don’t see how any of these videos or testimony can answer that.
- lazide 3y ago
  All the same and more also re: Hamas. Who are the elected representatives of the Palestinian people. This fight is the same as trying to intervene in the drunk, abusive couple down the street’s fight of the day. As is 90% of anything in the Middle East. No one is ‘clean’, but some are more palatable than others in some contexts. And if G or others won’t do business with the ‘officially more palatable’ option (in this case Israel, per the US gov’t), then it hurts their bottom line - which is also Google Employees bottom line. And Google can’t ignore the US gov’t, due to both revenue and regulatory involvement, especially now. If you’re looking for sainthood, non-profits are an option.
  - bitcharmer 3y ago
    Are we really going to pretend there's symmetry in this conflict? Really?
    - lazide 3y ago
      Who says there is a symmetry in the abusive couple neighbors? If you try to get involved, I guarantee you'll regret it either way. Ask any cop that's had to respond to a bunch of domestics.
- edanm 3y ago
  > How can one dispute that Israel is a genocidal apartheid? Let me talk specifically about the "genocidal" aspect, because Apartheid is a separate topic. If you're coming from a place of "of course Israel is committing genocide", I don't think it very likely that I'm going to convince you otherwise. That is the "default" narrative in many circles (just like the opposite narrative also exists in many circles). That said, I'll do my best to explain why I think that claims of genocide are very wrong. > There are literally hundreds of videos and witness testimony evidencing war crimes perpetrated by Israel. First, there are for sure war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers. Every war crime should be condemned, investigated and prosecuted. Though I don't think there are hundreds of war crimes documented, at least not serious war crimes (serious as in causing bodily harm or death to someone). That said, war crimes, while horrible, are an unfortunate reality that happens in almost every war. War crimes and genocide are separate things. Genocide requires Israel intentionally trying to kill Gazans, or at least part of Gaza. That's a big accusation, and it isn't backed up, at all, by the actual actions of Israel. Israel maybe kills "too many" civilians for the amount of militants it kills (though even that is debateable), but it is targeting militants. It isn't going in there and purposefully killing civilians, for the most part, though horrible mistakes do happen all the time. If you compare the amount of dead in Gaza to almost any modern war, there are far less dead in Gaza. And considering that Israel could do what other countries have done, which is intentionally kill civilians - the fact that there aren't more dead isn't a question of ability, but of will. Israel doesn't want to kill innocent civilians. Most of the videos you cite are either the kinds of terrible things that happen in every war, or genuine war crimes (which do happen), or, as is often the case, an incident which looks different without having context. This is a war in an urban environment, in which Hamas is doing everything in its power to cause more Palestinian casualties, not less. > Humanitarianaid is being held back or bombed by IDF. This is partially true, and I'm very angry at Israel for not allowing even more aid in. But aid isn't being bombed (except for mistakes, which do unfortunately happen). And it's not accurate to blanket say "aid is being held back" - Israel lets in hundreds of aid trucks every day. I think Israel should do a lot more, don't get me wrong, but if your impression is that literally no aid is getting in, that's very very far from reality. > There are even mass graves being uncovered which is reported by mainstream media. This is a story that's only a few days old. I don't think it's fair to draw conclusions on it just yet. The media has a terrible track record of taking claims against Israel at face value, only a few days later backing up the Israeli version, which often vindicates Israel. E.g. the infamous "hospital bombing" in which Israel killed 500 people, which after the fact turned out to be not even an Israel bomb, and only a few dozen died there anyway.

waihtis 3y ago

Nah I am just totally apathetic to the whole thing. I don't live there, it's not my war, it doesn't belong to me in any kind of context. Same is true for 99% of the corps out there. They should focus on giving their employees a better living instead of political circus.

worried4future 3y ago

[flagged]

zrn900 3y ago
> Correct. AI (or other technology) are tools. They can be used for good, they can be used for evil, it is should not be within the purview of a company to make such moral judgements. So basically when IBM was selling business machines that were being used in the concentration camps to the Nazi government it was ok. And when other US companies were selling all kinds of things including technology to the Nazis, which were used in the war, including for killing actual American soldiers. And if the Nazis won and were able to implement all they wanted at a global scale, these companies wouldn't be responsible for aiding the Nazi war effort and its eventual triumph. > people to mask-off with antisemitism trying Children are being murdered on live video. That's crazy talk at this point. If murdering children is semitism, then you are on the wrong side. If it isn't, then you are just talking nonsense because what they are doing is unjustifiable. The murder wont go away and the discussion wont stop if you scream 'anti-semitism'. Stop murdering children first.
- sixstringtheory 3y ago
  > Stop murdering children first. Of course, Israelis and their supporters will say the same thing. There is no one party to this state of affairs still alive that threw the first stone. There was October 7, before that there were settlements and annexations, before that there were intifadas, before that there were mandates, civil wars etc, all the while punctuated by stray killings, bombings and rocket attacks, on and on reaching back millennia. I think plenty of people are tired of the simplistic, reductive, one-side treatment protesters give the issue, as you’re showing here. They think they can dictate to everyone how it should be solved. Condescension like that just never plays well. Comparing the Israel-Palestine conflict to Nazi Germany is both a qualitative and quantitative error. The degree to which Israel has killed Palestinians is dwarfed by the numbers the Nazis put up. The Nazis invaded many countries, occupying a total area over ten times the size of modern Germany. All that in the span of a decade or two, depending on when you count the start; compared to a conflict that in modern times alone is measured in a hundred years, with a small fraction of the impact. With multiple countries committed to their destruction. It’s a disappointing comparison and I can’t help but think it’s made deliberately to provoke an emotional reaction.

rightbyte 3y ago

Hey silly you are supposed to not think it is a big deal.