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> Californians should be outraged Outraged about what? My bill has gone up a bit, but PG&E tells me it's because they are burying lines underground to prevent

> Californians should be outraged Outraged about what? My bill has gone up a bit, but PG&E tells me it's because they are burying lines underground to prevent wildfires. It seems like Lydia Lunch hates PG&E, but they don't seem any better or worse than the average utility company.

igor47 3y ago
this... has always seemed incredible to me, as in "hard to believe". how many miles of transmission infrastructure can they bury in the remote wooded mountains of california where the wildfires start? the worn hook that caused the paradise fire was out in the open for a decade, and nobody replaced it. if its so hard to get to a metal hook hanging off the pole, how hard is it to literally dig a trench and bury a conductor that, oh yeah, will no longer be getting aircooled and so must either be much larger/more numerous, or be actively cooled somehow, plus then must be dug up in case of maintenance.... i just don't believe it. i think PG&E is using the idea of burying power lines to justify rate increases for capital expenditures, and hopes to never complete (or maybe initiate) these projects, all the while avoiding immediate active responsibility for currently-neglected infrastructure (sorry about that latest wildfire, we are planning to fix this issue by burying all the power lines by 2375!). would love to be proven wrong here...
- riehwvfbk 3y ago
  A decade? Try a century! That hook was manufactured in 1928.
  - eszed 3y ago
    I think GP was referring to an inspection of that line / tower which noted the degraded condition of the ~century-old fasteners and recommended replacement. A decade+ passed without that work being done, and then the hook failed. The liability for that is, of course, being paid for through our higher rates.
- metadat 3y ago
  I've seen them doing the work to bury the power lines in Northern California near Lassen. It's true that it's labor intensive. It's also true that you can't really trust PG&E, they have a monopoly position over most of the market. From what I observed, it looked like they have only one or two crews doing all this work. Given the scope of rate increases, the output rate seems low.
- lazide 3y ago
  I agree re: using it as an excuse to get more money. They generally operate on a ‘cost plus’ type model, use very expensive union labor and their own capital equipment, and seem to always do work in the most absurdly inefficient way possible. Buried lines are much lower risk of fires and going down in bad storms. Burying lines is a great way to do it in that cost model too, as a lot of these problem areas require blasting (highly regulated in CA, and absurdly controlled!) and these areas are also often very remote and rugged. To avoid causing fires during the work, there is also a lot of secondary work that needs to happen, and additional ‘fire watch’ labor. So very expensive, time consuming, easy to generate massive amounts of red tape to bog things down, and hard for people to watch them and complain.
genter 3y ago
My bill is 1.5 what it was 10 years ago, yet my actual usage is down slightly.
- diffeomorphism 3y ago
  That is not that different from inflation? https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=100&year1=201401&year2=202403 https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=100&year1=2014...
- cycomanic 3y ago
  Inflation over that time frame was ab ut 1.35 so a 1.5 increase is only slightly above inflation. Is that really outrageous? I'd wager that e.g. Infrastructure and labour costs increased more than that over the last 10 years.
  - kbenson 3y ago
    A 1.5x increase is a 43% more than a 1.35x increase. Also, why wouldn't labor costs be factored into that inflation increase, and why would infrastructure costs be more than inflation?
    - bravetraveler 3y ago
      This thread has me confused... Why are we even industrializing if the processes and such don't become more efficient? I don't expect 0, stuff costs, but I'd expect a downward trend
      - lazide 3y ago
        Not what is going on in this case, but even if real costs stayed the same - counting inflation - costs would go up every year. That isn't what is going on here, rather PG&E is manipulating the rate payer, and the rate payer is also having to do massive 'catchups' for prior manipulations PG&E has done (like not keeping required records, skimping on maintenance to dangerous degrees, etc.). And since somehow PG&E has convinced everyone there is no other solution than paying them more money...
proc0 3y ago
You will pay more starting next year, depending on whether or not the Commission decide to go forward with the fixed rates which I think is about to happen in July, if I recall From last I checked I would pay about $45 extra a month, but I'm far from wealthy, it's just that the way they are doing the income-based breakdown does not factor in how expensive the area you live in is (Bay Area being quite expensive unless you want to risk living in dangerous areas). Additionally, I don't think this means more reliable power. I have already been through a 24 hour outage last year (and multiple shorter ones every year). This can be downplayed all day long but it seems obvious to me that CA has a combination of high taxes and poor infrastructure that is incompetently patched with bad policies and all together put a lot of strain on the middle class. If it's not corruption at some level, it has to be greatly incompetent people in power, or a combination of both.
yumraj 3y ago
Compare PG&E rates with that of what people in neighboring Santa Clara city pay [0], and then decide whether or not you should be outraged that your paying ~0.45-0.5 per kWh and they are paying 0.166 kWh. > any better or worse than the average utility company. PG&E rates are highest on mainland US, still they are no better or worse? [0] https://www.siliconvalleypower.com/residents/rates-and-fees https://www.siliconvalleypower.com/residents/rates-and-fees
- lazide 3y ago
  They also cover the most ostentatiously 'green' area in the most 'green' state in the US. It's a situation ripe for playing games and skimming off 'feel good' projects.
miguelazo 3y ago
They tell you whatever platitudes you want to hear, just like what they say to the CPUC. That doesn’t make it true. The rates have gone way up, far faster than inflation or undergrounding can justify. Also, who is to say undergrounding is even necessary? There are grid enhancing technologies like composite cables that make undergrounding totally unnecessary in most cases. The reason for a lot of fires is cable sag, because they’ve been using the same technology for a century. Which is not surprising when your regulator is asleep at the wheel and gives you zero incentive to innovate.

igor47 3y ago

this... has always seemed incredible to me, as in "hard to believe". how many miles of transmission infrastructure can they bury in the remote wooded mountains of california where the wildfires start? the worn hook that caused the paradise fire was out in the open for a decade, and nobody replaced it. if its so hard to get to a metal hook hanging off the pole, how hard is it to literally dig a trench and bury a conductor that, oh yeah, will no longer be getting aircooled and so must either be much larger/more numerous, or be actively cooled somehow, plus then must be dug up in case of maintenance.... i just don't believe it. i think PG&E is using the idea of burying power lines to justify rate increases for capital expenditures, and hopes to never complete (or maybe initiate) these projects, all the while avoiding immediate active responsibility for currently-neglected infrastructure (sorry about that latest wildfire, we are planning to fix this issue by burying all the power lines by 2375!). would love to be proven wrong here...

riehwvfbk 3y ago
A decade? Try a century! That hook was manufactured in 1928.
- eszed 3y ago
  I think GP was referring to an inspection of that line / tower which noted the degraded condition of the ~century-old fasteners and recommended replacement. A decade+ passed without that work being done, and then the hook failed. The liability for that is, of course, being paid for through our higher rates.
metadat 3y ago
I've seen them doing the work to bury the power lines in Northern California near Lassen. It's true that it's labor intensive. It's also true that you can't really trust PG&E, they have a monopoly position over most of the market. From what I observed, it looked like they have only one or two crews doing all this work. Given the scope of rate increases, the output rate seems low.
lazide 3y ago
I agree re: using it as an excuse to get more money. They generally operate on a ‘cost plus’ type model, use very expensive union labor and their own capital equipment, and seem to always do work in the most absurdly inefficient way possible. Buried lines are much lower risk of fires and going down in bad storms. Burying lines is a great way to do it in that cost model too, as a lot of these problem areas require blasting (highly regulated in CA, and absurdly controlled!) and these areas are also often very remote and rugged. To avoid causing fires during the work, there is also a lot of secondary work that needs to happen, and additional ‘fire watch’ labor. So very expensive, time consuming, easy to generate massive amounts of red tape to bog things down, and hard for people to watch them and complain.

genter 3y ago

My bill is 1.5 what it was 10 years ago, yet my actual usage is down slightly.

diffeomorphism 3y ago
That is not that different from inflation? https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=100&year1=201401&year2=202403 https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=100&year1=2014...
cycomanic 3y ago
Inflation over that time frame was ab ut 1.35 so a 1.5 increase is only slightly above inflation. Is that really outrageous? I'd wager that e.g. Infrastructure and labour costs increased more than that over the last 10 years.
- kbenson 3y ago
  A 1.5x increase is a 43% more than a 1.35x increase. Also, why wouldn't labor costs be factored into that inflation increase, and why would infrastructure costs be more than inflation?
  - bravetraveler 3y ago
    This thread has me confused... Why are we even industrializing if the processes and such don't become more efficient? I don't expect 0, stuff costs, but I'd expect a downward trend
    - lazide 3y ago
      Not what is going on in this case, but even if real costs stayed the same - counting inflation - costs would go up every year. That isn't what is going on here, rather PG&E is manipulating the rate payer, and the rate payer is also having to do massive 'catchups' for prior manipulations PG&E has done (like not keeping required records, skimping on maintenance to dangerous degrees, etc.). And since somehow PG&E has convinced everyone there is no other solution than paying them more money...

proc0 3y ago

You will pay more starting next year, depending on whether or not the Commission decide to go forward with the fixed rates which I think is about to happen in July, if I recall From last I checked I would pay about $45 extra a month, but I'm far from wealthy, it's just that the way they are doing the income-based breakdown does not factor in how expensive the area you live in is (Bay Area being quite expensive unless you want to risk living in dangerous areas). Additionally, I don't think this means more reliable power. I have already been through a 24 hour outage last year (and multiple shorter ones every year). This can be downplayed all day long but it seems obvious to me that CA has a combination of high taxes and poor infrastructure that is incompetently patched with bad policies and all together put a lot of strain on the middle class. If it's not corruption at some level, it has to be greatly incompetent people in power, or a combination of both.

yumraj 3y ago

Compare PG&E rates with that of what people in neighboring Santa Clara city pay [0], and then decide whether or not you should be outraged that your paying ~0.45-0.5 per kWh and they are paying 0.166 kWh. > any better or worse than the average utility company. PG&E rates are highest on mainland US, still they are no better or worse? [0] https://www.siliconvalleypower.com/residents/rates-and-fees https://www.siliconvalleypower.com/residents/rates-and-fees

lazide 3y ago
They also cover the most ostentatiously 'green' area in the most 'green' state in the US. It's a situation ripe for playing games and skimming off 'feel good' projects.

miguelazo 3y ago

They tell you whatever platitudes you want to hear, just like what they say to the CPUC. That doesn’t make it true. The rates have gone way up, far faster than inflation or undergrounding can justify. Also, who is to say undergrounding is even necessary? There are grid enhancing technologies like composite cables that make undergrounding totally unnecessary in most cases. The reason for a lot of fires is cable sag, because they’ve been using the same technology for a century. Which is not surprising when your regulator is asleep at the wheel and gives you zero incentive to innovate.